British Vehicle Markings - a rough guide

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by SquireBev, May 30, 2020.

  1. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Afternoon all!

    Using the wealth of extra information from the 2nd edition of Hodges & Taylor I've made a start on updating some of the Middle East diagrams. See below:

    Armoured Division - September 1941
    A couple of minor issues with this one:
    • No evidence of any infantry in the support group - presumably because both battalions have become Motor Battalions in the armoured brigades instead but the official structure hasn't yet been updated to reflect this?
    • No mention of which units have a LAD attached.
    • Both armoured brigades and the support group are listed as having a Recovery Section, Light Recovery Section and Ordnance Field Park Section attached, using the appropriate colours, but I'm not sure whether this was part of the official structure or a field expedient.

    UK - Middle East - Armoured Division - 1941 Late-01.png

    Infantry Division - September 1941
    • Again no mention of which units have a LAD attached.
    • No mention of a divisional RAOC workshop either
    UK - Middle East - Infantry Division - 1941 Late-01.png

    Corps - September 1941
    A couple of minor issues with this one:
    • No mention of an overall Corps cash office
    • Again no mention of which units have a LAD attached.
    • Confusion over whether Mobile Bath Units came under RAMC or RAOC. Some suggestion that RAMC was responsible for laundry and bath on bases and depots, while RAOC was responsible for the same in the field?
    UK - Middle East - Corps - 1941-01.png

    As ever, feedback, comments, corrections all VERY welcome.
     
    Chris WIlletts likes this.
  2. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I'm sure that 40 (on red over blue) is the (divisional) HQRA number, but I can't say when it first became so.

    I only have post-war photographs of this, and you have it down as 82 in late-41.

    Edit: forgive me, you've covered this on the first page of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
    Tolbooth likes this.
  3. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    The lists in Hodges & M.D. Taylor suggest that for the Middle East and Italy it was still 82 in October 1942, but had switched to 40 by July 1943.

    Meanwhile in the UK/NW Europe it had been 40 from as early as late 1940, according to the Bellis and D. Taylor
     
    Charley Fortnum likes this.
  4. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Divisional Bath Units rarely get mentioned in Divisional histories nut one does in "Path of the 50th". U/c RAMC 10/5 40. Somewhere in the official Medical histories there is a bit about the transfer of all bath & laundry units to RAOC. I'll try and find it.
     
    SquireBev likes this.
  5. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

  6. Hi Squirebev,

    I see that you have updated 4 Armd Bde AoS to the two-coloured flash in your Formation Timelines page, but not in the Armoured Formations page. :D

    I believe you can now also modify 33 Armd Bde AoS flashes to show the same two colours. See Arm of Service Marking Dilemma.

    Michel
     
  7. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Hi

    • There was certainly infantry in the support group, see attached screenshot putting 2 KRRC under it on 4 October.
    • Do you have the war diary?
    • By November the Rec Sec, LRS and OFP are definitely part of the official structure, and referred to e.g. as "7 Armd Bde LRS".
    All the best

    Andreas
     

    Attached Files:

  8. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    GHQ Middle East chose not to implement all of changes in establishment that were issued by the War Office. Sometimes they just didn't agree with them so ignored them, sometimes they just didn't have the unit or the equipment available. They just did what they felt like doing.

    How you represent that on you graphics is for someone smarter than me to suggest.
     
    Christian Fletcher likes this.
  9. ww2biker

    ww2biker Member

    Good morning,

    I am currently restoring a ww2 jeep. I want to dress this up as a vehicle of the 15th Scottish Infantry Division. I have attached original photos from October '44 of the liberation of Tilburg - Netherlands, showing a number of vehicles from the 15th. My question is about the division marking on the photos. I assume that the marking 40 stands for HQ and that the numbers are white on a black background. Is that correct? But I see something below the number 40 that I don't know what that could possibly be. Do you have an idea of this?

    Thanks for the help.

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
     
  10. Hello ww2biker and welcome to the forum!

    Unfortunately your images are not displayed in your post and are not accessible. It looks like you are using a link to a gmail account, which does not work. Try posting images using the forum tools instead. Use the "Edit" button below your post, then "Upload a file". See Adding Images

    Michel
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  11. ww2biker

    ww2biker Member

    unnamed (2).png unnamed (1).png unnamed.png
    Thanks. Hereby you'll find the images...
     
  12. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

  13. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    If it was just on the jeep I'd be tempted to say it was two stars, to denote the General's personal vehicle, but I don't know if British Army generals other than Monty really bothered with the star markings, and it's also on the truck anyway. Very unusual.
     
  14. ww2biker

    ww2biker Member

    Do you mean that below the '40' there would be another scottish lion? Do you have any examples that give a cleares view on what that would look like?
     
  15. ww2biker

    ww2biker Member

    No it's not stars. I agree on that. Thanks
     
  16. It looks like these markings below the Serial 40 are the individual vehicle ID within HQ 15 Div. See this photo, from the same source, of an Austin K5 lorry with 'D3' below the '40':
    012142 - Lorry AoS40 D3 15 Div, Wilhelminapark, Gasthuisstraat, Tilburg 27 Oct 44 - cropped.jpg
    Source: regionaalarchieftilburg.nl photo 012142
     
  17. ww2biker

    ww2biker Member

    Great!! Thanks a lot!!
    Any idea on where to find more information about this system of vehicle ID numbers? Would a jeep also get a D or maybe another character?
     
  18. I have no idea. RA units used a formalised, if somewhat variable, system, but 15 Div must have used their own. There might be some clues in their War Diary?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  19. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    I have just gone through some war establishments for Div HQ component units - lots of them. The only interesting thing I found is that many sub units within the Div HQ had 1 only 3 ton truck - only the Signals Regiment had a quite a few. And the ones in your photos are definitely not Signals vehicles because the background would be obviously different. That means D3 is a tac sign used across all the vehicles of that particular unit and there's like a dozen that it could be! An interesting feature of the truck backing into position is that it's a Captain directing it. Very unusual for an officer to be doing such. We need a photo of a badge on a beret!!!
    cheers
     
  20. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Who determined which arm had what colours? The question has been asked in military circles about the origin of the Royal Artillery Red over Blue flash - now worn on uniforms but probably originated in arm of service markings.

    So who published the first set of service markings and who determined that the RA were Red over Blue and not pink over green?
     
    Chris C likes this.

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