British Soldiers shot for retiring without permission

I've just completed reading the books on the BEF in France during 1940 by Montefiore and Longden back to back as it as phase of the war that I've never really looked at in depth before. I was quite shocked to read about a couple of instances in which men were summarily shot for 'retiring without permission'.

Would anyone know the full number of men who were dealt with in this manner and if any investigations, court martial etc. into these incidents were conducted once the BEF had been fully evacuated?

Thanks

Jonathan

 

I know of two incidents where British Officers were shot.

A 246 Field Company, Royal Engineer Officer by a Guards Officer at Furness. The Guards officer was awarded a MC after he and his men turned the rest of the Engineers around at the point of the bayonet. It was Lieutenant Jones 2 Grenadier Guards. He got a Bar too in 1944.

The other was a Captain from 5 Borders in the Wareham area of the Canal and was shot at by Lt. Jimmy Langley of the Coldstream Guards and his Boss Major McCorquodale. It's believed one of them hit the officer and killed him after warning him not to retreat beyond a tree.

 

Funny...No mention of that in the history of 246 RE???????
Source please?

 

Where would you like me to start Brian?

Its in several of my Dunkirk books and war diaries. I believe Lt Jones citation records that he shot an officer too but it was crossed out not to be released in into the public domain.

I can give you the RE officers name too if you want. 246's war diary tell a slightly different story to what happened comapred to everyone else but they would wouldn't they. Retreating against orders isn't something they'd want to advertise.

 

I've just checked 246 Fld Coy's War Diary and I believe the RE officer that was shot is 2nd Lt. D A S J Evans.

CWGC :: Certificate

 

This (almost) ties in - from "Tigers at Dunkirk" by Matthew Richardson, regarding the withdrawal of small groups of the 2nd/5th Leicesters towards Dunkirk. Private Gordon Spring recalled:

We were dive bombed . . . A colonel came up and said "You with the Bren Gun - shoot any man who discards his uniform." I refused. I refused an order from a Colonel. This was anarchy . . .
The colonel apparently threatened Spring with court martial and then threatened to shoot him and all those with him - Spring thought this unlikely and he dashed away with a party of other men. He never saw the colonel again, nor was he charged with any offence.

 

Andy

Those were the 2 incidents I knew of. I'd seen the dramatised account of the 'beyond the tree' episode in the 3 part BBC series a few years ago and it has always stayed with me.

As for the other incident I think that the entry in the Montefiore book (and i'm at work so it's not to hand) is taken verbatim from the war diary for May 1940 of 2/Grenadier Guards. Is this indeed the case?

Finally, I'm very glad these seem to be only two isolated incidents. That it did not happen more to my mind is a tribute to the professionalism of the BEF under the most intense pressure imaginable. It's something that has been intriguing me so that is why I asked.

Jonathan.

 

Breaks ya heart doesn't it to think how hard the fighting must have been during May and June. The shear hopelessness of it all and wondering all the time in the back of your head if you was going to get to Dunkirk in time to be evacuated back home.

You just don't get stories like this post D-Day when we were winning.

 

Awful isn't it. The odd thing is that the same company was often in trouble in driving ahead of their own. led by the doughty Colonel Tiger Urquhart. RE.

Earning the accolade of "Those bloody Sappers again"

I can find no mention of this disgraceful behaviour in the 245 RE History in my possession. Nothing at all. During my time with this company, I only witness one time when a man broke under very heavy shell fire. He did not run away, but he was panic stricken.. Come to that, at the time I dont blame him. It was horrific.

I do know that the company earned a mention in the short history of the RE for their valiant deeds.

 

The OC of 246 Fld Coy in May 1940 was Captain T/Major H P Drayson according to the war diary.

I wouldn't call it disgracefull behaviour Brian, I think the situation at the end of May in France is rather unique and not even the vets on here can really pass judgement on what they must have been experiencing at the time in my opinion.

A new army untested in combat (I believe 246 was a TA unit) with a massive baptism of fire from Tanks they could not destroy, Aircraft they could not shoot down and artillery they could not see, ill equiped, on half rations if they were lucky and at times poorly led. Who in their right mind would want to stay in a position facing overwhelming odds knowing that only a few miles away boats were waiting to take them home but not knowing how long they were going to wait for. On top of all that you keep seeing other troops retreating while you are told to stay - I'd be looking for the first excuse to do one. Everyone a hero in my book for what they endoured.

 

This is not 1940 but a comment on 1944 and something I have seen no where else.

My father's unit retrained as Airborne troops and were expecting to go in on D Day. However at the very last minute, orders were changed and they formed the guard shepherding the troops onto the ships at D Day.

They were under strict orders to shoot any soldier who refused to get on the boat.

Thankfully this never happened.

I suppose at the end of the day, it is the greater good that has to prevail - the death of a couple of British soldiers versus the loss of many.

 

What's full SP on the Langley story? I'm asking, because that particular dramatisation makes it look as if the officer shot was returning to his unit to tell them to withdraw I.E. he wasn't actually retreating at that moment, they shot him to stop him giving any subsequent orders.

 

Can I just add that no one knows what they will do under great duress. I had a soldier in my platoon in Iraq who, every time the air or PIDS siren went off he ran into the short drop kharzi (not the president of Afghanistan I may add), and quite frankly when the NBC alert went off I myself was a bit squiffy. Even the Duke of Wellington didn't mind the odd squaddie or unit running away - as long as they came back to the fight!

 

Without trying to be boastful in any way. (I was as scared as the next man!) I have to say that the Company I served with filled me with pride. Sure, we had some battle exhaustion cases. But There was a reason for that........They had taken part in the most murderous battles imaginable.

So Yes. I take great pride in having seen action with the best Assault /Field Company RE in the British army. As to running away? never.. NEVER... NEVER!
Shit scared at times, too bloody right I was, As we all were. But run away. NO

That does not come in my vocabulary.... For one thing, I, like my mates were far too bloody stubborn to contemplate anything else but a determination to succeed.

Having come close to death twice in action, and once from the effect of the war in later years. The stubbornness that sustained the lads in action, sustained me when all seemed lost

The same stubbornness that enabled me to reach the age I am........

Besides; Saint Peter has put away in a cellophane packet, the beautiful pair of pristine white wings that he prepared for me in 1944.

Sadly, yesterday I attended the funeral of my best friend Dennis. Den was a fleet air arm pilot that served in the Atlantic the Med, and in the Pacific He flew amongst others the fairey swordfish. The famed "Stringbag" He was one of natures true gentleman... He was also the last of my Vet friends. Rest in Peace Dennis.
Sapper

 

Sorry Sapper, I didn't mean to spark you off, or offend in any way. I served with 28 Amphibious & 32 Armoured Engineer Regts and I have always had the greatest admiration and respect for you "Wedggies" (and your drinking capacity!). I was just adding my experience to the forum. I didn't mean to imply that it was acceptable to run away, just that after a day of "hard pounding" Wellington understood the fragility of men under intense fire over a considerable period of time.

 

Ok... I never knew this, despite having a good amount on 246 Field Coy RE.

It was a TA unit from Cardiff, part of 53rd Welsh Division - the quality of the men was excellent and very dedicated during the budget cuts. However they soon took on a vast number of men during the doubling of the TA in 1939, and lost experienced men to reform Field Parks, and their double Field Coy.

In 1939
"Glamorgan Rifle Associaton Victory Shield Meeting at Baglan Range - 246 RE Coy team retain the Shield, beating a major challenge from 4th Welch." From my private timeline, thanks to various sources.

On the 31st August it was attached to 3rd Division.

My opinion of the quality of the men is pretty simple - lacking many sources post August, however I do have records relating to other 53rd men from the RE units, many of whom went into the Commandos. As a rule the 53rd Div RE units were very highly dedicated, 246 continuing through the 1930s on the officers and men's own buck to train together.

The unit went to France with;
Major Bill Gronow (OC), Captain Boralase (2IC), and Lts J Vaughan Williams and Bill Pritchard, 2 Lts - John Heppell and DA St John Evans. It is important to add that as far as my documentation and John Roberts book 'Welsh Bridges to the Elbe' states that all these men are Terriers.

They were based around Lille building defensive works. Williams was sent to 7 Field Coy, RE to become 2 IC, and Gronow was sent to Corps HQ. Replaced by Harold Drayton 'a regular sapper officer, experienced civil engineer and a man of high calibre'.

They destroyed 50 bridges on the way to Dunkirk, and 'Bill Pritchard and Tom Whinney destoryed a bridge in the face of the eenemy and were both decorated for this action on the recommendation of Commander 7th Guards Brigade', John Roberts pp28.

With the rest of 3rd Div they stand on the River Dyle and held the position for 3 days, 2 nights against the enemy. And when the line was breached Drayton led a counter attack with 30 sappers driving the enemy back. Lance Sergeant Bohem [pre-war Terrier] was awarded the DCM for this action.

Now, the second half of my post relies heavily on Roberts, but I feel that as a whole the quality of the unit had been heavily watered down by the doubling of the TA and the loss of experienced personnel to form their second unit in 38 Div certainly did not help matters.

I find it readily apparent that as a whole the pre-war Terriers of 53 Divs RE performed remarkably well across the war as a whole but at a risk of going off topic I find it certainly interesting that 3 men were well decorated. And I believe the loss of leading well known figures shortly before the offensive could have done little to help a unit - of which a good deal would have been made up of very new soldiers in comparison to the rest of the unit. And that their actions days later, and before hand show them to be highly capable soldiers.

But still. Bloody interesting.