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British Soldiers Murdered at Forêt de Nieppe / Nieppe Forest 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Excellent work Andy & Brian.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    [​IMG]

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    Paul Reed likes this.
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  5. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    That's Hausser, not Hauser.
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    In January 1945

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  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Statement of Emile Sence, Rural Constable:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Statement of Jule Dupont, Farmer:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Statement of Leon Louchart, Farmer:

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  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  12. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    Well I never: the SS-Vefugungs Division became 2. SS Panzer Division Das Reich - no strangers to atrocities!

    Everything points to Germania being engaged in the Foret de Nieppe but that's not quite the same as saying they carried out the shooting. One of the links I think I posted before (this one) and Mattson's SS-Das Reich mention that Germania was shot up quite badly by the RWKs. I also recall a mention of the Germans (not in the context of this action, though, might have been on the Le Paradis thread) thinking that we were using dum-dums on them due to the nature of the gunshot wounds (in fact caused by fully-jacketed and quite legal - though base-heavy and prone to tumbling - .303" ball). Those factors could explain , though not excuse, their actions.

    Germania, by the way, seems to have become the cadre for SS Division Wiking.

    Mattson also has a brief order of battle for SS Verfugungs that lists an unnumbered Panzerjager Batallion and Panzer-Abwehr Abteilung. Arabic numerals were conventionally used to denote kompanie (Roman numerals for batallion) so 3. PzJgAbt may refer to its third kompanie. That's about the finest resolution I can get from my shelves.
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  13. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    That was Eicke's unit complaining about dum-dum.

    Several factors contributed to a tendance to commit atrocities:
    - lack of experience
    - losses (and with it situational factors like topography)
    - mentality
    Both the V- and the T-Div were quite inexperienced (their performance in Poland was rather nonrelevant) and their military training was insufficient (though it was better in the V-Div than in the T-Div).
    Forest fighting is a difficult task esp. for inexperienced units and I read that the SS rgts involved in the Nieppe forest suffered heavy casualties (officers, too). Heavy losses in battle, esp. when a popular and admired officer or NCO is lost can lead to outbursts of violence (at least in inexperienced units).
    Apart from that one should not forget it was Waffen-SS fighting. Even though imo the role of ideology is often overrated it certainly should not be neglected. In these early operations SS units also lacked respect which they had yet to earn on the battlefield. It was crucial for the Waffen-SS to get just that respect and show that they were at least as good as the Wehrmacht, or even better - because that was their raison d'être.

    Fluctuation of personnel was very high in the Waffen-SS, mainly because it had a small basis and because of the massive expansion and a lack of replacements (after all the Wehrmacht needed soldiers just as well).

    Arabic numerals were conventionally used to denote kompanie (Roman numerals for batallion) so 3. PzJgAbt may refer to its third kompanie. That's about the finest resolution I can get from my shelves.
    I wouldn't bet on that... Btl is often with arabic numerals (unlike Korps), or am I mistaken there...
    You are right about the unit being a Kompanie: 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. is the 3. of the units the Btl. is divided into, i.e. a Kp.
    *edit*
    No, I think you are right about Roman numerals for Btl. (as well as for a Zug and a Korps).
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    H - thanks for the confirmation. Am I right in thinking that the early Waffen-SS personnel would have been indoctrinated to a greater degree than later 'direct entrants'?
     
  15. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    H - thanks for the confirmation. Am I right in thinking that the early Waffen-SS personnel would have been indoctrinated to a greater degree than later 'direct entrants'?

    Yes.
    Before and in the early years of the war, recruitment for the Waffen-SS (resp. what would later become the W-SS) was very strict, political belief mattered a lot.
    If you consider what 'job' the SS-TV had, it's not difficult to imagine that their ideological setting was very different from the Wehrmacht.

    It gets more complex from 1943 on. First of all, the Waffen-SS doubled; to fill their ranks they had to lower the standard for recruitment (also actively recruiting what Himmler called the "involuntary volunteers"). At the same time the degree of indoctrination went up in the Wehrmacht as well (for various reasons). And you shouldn't forget that the young recruits had been socialised in the Third Reich.
    Another factor is that war often left little time for ideology. Even tho it was on the schedule and the Reichsführung-SS deemed it essential, many commanders considered military training to be more important (in the later years of the war there often wasn't even enough time for a proper military training, ideological training didn't matter that much anymore).

    What I've been able to make out while researching the subject is that even in 1944 the cadre was still quite "reliable", meaning that most of the officers and NCOs were still convinced nazis (with exceptions of course), whereas enlisted men definitely can't be compared to the early units anymore.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Note the pencil remarks at the bottom.....I don't think he was happy.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

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