British semi-automatic infantry rifles?

I wonder, does anyone know if the War Department even considered adopting a semi-automatic infantry rifle?

I have read some mention of the Charlton Automatic Rifle and the Howell, but I believe these were emergency adaptions of the Lee Enfield. Were there any original designs put forward prior to the outbreak of the war?

Cheers,

Steve

 

This one:
Make: Charlton
Calibre: .303
Model: Machine Gun
Stock: Wood
Weight: 8.00kgs
Barrel Length: 25.5" / 650mm
Overall Length: 45" / 1140mm
LOP: 13.5" / 345mm

 

South African Reider Automatic Rifle

 

Thank you for those pictures Spider - I couldn't find any myself...

The Charlton does look more like a LSW (Light Support Weapon) in much the same mould as the American BAR. Considering we adopted the superb BREN I'm not surprised it never really caught on - but as an emergency adaption the Charlton probably filled a gap.

The Reider however does look more like the semi-automatic infantry rifle I imagined!

I wonder how the performance of the Reider compared to the American Garand? Of particular advantage must have been the addition of a box magazine (I presume it was removable?)...

Is there any detailed information on the Reider's performance? (I see in the notes it was prone to over-heat - but that may have been resolved.)

Again, thank you Spider.

Steve

 

I see in the notes it was prone to over-heat - but that may have been resolved


Hmm....I read that comment - and couldn't work out if it referred to the "attachment" or the rifle as a whole...?

 

Hmm....I read that comment - and couldn't work out if it referred to the "attachment" or the rifle as a whole...?

That's a good question - I would suspect that it was whatever gas-reciprocating system was used rather than the basic rifle...

If one bear in mind that experienced British troops could put out a large volume of fire from the basic bolt-action Enfield and that didn't seem to cause any over-heating problems.

(There is that story that such was the rate of fire that the 'Old Contemptibles' put out during the First World War that the Germans thought they were using machine guns! The Lee Enfield bolt system was that good.)

...I do look at that huge box mag on the Reider and do not wonder that full semi-auto placed stress on the gas system used - particularly as it was a add-on design and not a semi-auto design from the ground up.

 

Managed to find out a bit more about semi-automatic rifles in service prior to World War Two, here's a selection...

RSC Model 1918 semi-auto rifle (France)


ZH-29 Semi-automatic rifle (Czechoslovakia)


M1908 Mondragon self-loading rifle (Switzerland/Mexico)


None of these early self-loading rifles were entirely satisfactory - one major factor was each one's sensitivity to dirt fouling, something that precluded their wide use - though they were available - during the First World War. Actually, it seems that it was the French RSC 1918 seems to have been the most hardy.

(Photo source: Modern Firearms - Îðóæèå)

HOWEVER - much to my surprise I actually managed to find some information on a BRITISH self-loader from the same period (1908-1918)...


(Photo source: REME Museum - REME Museum of Technology - Home Page)

This (above) is the little known Farquhar-Hill Hybrid self-loading rifle and was presented for selection to the War Department. Further more, this was just one of many self-loaders that were considered by the British Army between 1900 and the outbreak of the 1914-18 war.

The REME Museum notes that the Farquar-Hill was just as unsatisfactory as the others I had mentioned above - but that Major H J Farquhar-Hill made some improvements, but it was still turned down.

However, additional information I found on the Great War Forum seems to suggest that Major Farquhar-Hill overcame his earlier problems...

'Farquhar Hill rifle Serial No.8 as tested at 3rd Army in France in late 1917, who reported it had "great possibilities in skilled hands"...'

However, the war ended and for some reason the impetus was lost. A pity - if development had continued we may have been equipped with a serviceable self-loader in 1939!

 

I wonder, does anyone know if the War Department even considered adopting a semi-automatic infantry rifle?

I have read some mention of the Charlton Automatic Rifle and the Howell, but I believe these were emergency adaptions of the Lee Enfield. Were there any original designs put forward prior to the outbreak of the war?

Cheers,

Steve

Towards the end of WWI the decision was taken to put the Farquhar-Hill rifle into production as the Pattern 1918 rifle, with plans to manufacture 100,000. Good progress had been made on production of drawings, tools and jigs when the Armistice caused the project to be cancelled.

At a meeting in early 1919 it was recorded that the £50,000 spent to date should be written off.

Again in the 1928-30 period considerable thought was given to adopting the .276" Pederson rifle by the War Office as it was anticipated that the Americans would soon be adopting it. Vickers manufactured about 200 rifles and carbines and both Kynoch and Greenwood & Batley made ammunition here.

In 1943-44 the SLEM-1 experimental rifle was designed by Dieudonne Saivre (of FN) working at ARDE Cheshunt and prototypes were made at Enfield.

In 1950 the EM2 was actually adopted as the Rifle 7mm No.9 by the Labour government (Manny Shinwell was Minister of War) but as soon as Churchill was re-elected in 1951 he rescinded the adoption and repaced it with the FN FAL and the American 7.62mm T65 round.

So the answer to your question is "several times but without success".

Regards
TonyE

 

Our posts seem to have crossed!

I have looked at the REME museum's F-H rifle and it appears to be an early example, possibly from the 1908 trials. Quite why they describe it as a hybrid I do not know, but then the REME Museum cataloguing is very poor anyway. Possibly it is because it uses a "stored energy" gas system rather than a direct gas system. The F-H tested in WWI and which it was intended to manufacture had a metal handguard and a number of other minor improvements.

I did not mention the pre WWI trials in my previous post as none were adopted, but the Automatic Rifle Committee of 1908 -1914 tested some 30 different self loading rifles during this period. I gave a talk on these for the HBSA at Bisley in 2008 and one day will get round to finishing a book on the subject.

Incidently, I have fired the French St.Etienne, the Farquhar-Hill and the Howell. The F-H is the best by far.

Regards
TonyE

 

Hello there Tony...

And can I first thank you as it was your post on the Great War Forum that gave me my information on the Farquhar-Hill!

This is a fascinating subject - although it might seem amazing that the British didn't adopt a self-loading rifle earlier hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

My take on the reason that a semi-auto rifle was not adopted was that it perhaps just did not seem so critical...

The War Department probably looked at it's likely adversaries and found that they didn't have semi-auto rifles themselves. Germany, Italy and Japan all utilized bolt-action rifles until comparatively late in the Second World War.

I understand you are compiling your research to write a book - I would find that a very interesting read! > Good luck!

 

Milgeek
Get in touch with the Leeds Armouries Part of the National Armouries, they are/or have received the collection of weapoms from the Pattern Room.
Apparantly the weapons are one of each tested or evaluated for use in the UK armed forces they even have a copy of a German Gun for shooting round corners.

See if they have the weapons and if they are going to display them then you can cathch up on all we tried and discarded.

 

The National Firearms Centre at the Royal Armouries, Leeds, which now houses the old Pattern Room collection is not open to the public, although interested parties can apply for a visit.

They do indeed have a considerable number of self loading rifles tested by the war Office over the years, but do not have many from the pre WWI Automatic Rifle Committee trials. However, other exanmples exist in the IWM, Warminster and Shrivenham collections.

The pictures below are:
The prototype Farquhar-Hill Pattern 1918 rifle
The Enfield "A". c. 1908
The Kretz, c.1913

The latter is probably one of the most complicated mechanisms ever, utilising a chain drive and two sets of opposing clock springs!

Regards
TonyE

 

Tony, you're a gem!

Now that shows the Farquhar-Hill Pattern 1918 drum magazine I have read about. But I believe it was still loaded manually via a traditional stripper-clip (as per the normal SMLE)?

The Kretz looks amazing! But I imagine it would have been far too delicate for use in the trenches!

I cannot help but wonder how the Farquhar-Hill might have compared with the American Garand? (I believe you mentioned that you have fired the Farquhar-Hill Pattern, have you also by chance been able to fire a Garand?)

 

Although I like the F-H, there is no way that it can be compared to the Garand, which is a far tougher and superior weapon. The design of the F-H dates from around 1905, whereas by the time the Garand entered service in 1936 a lot had been learnt about self loading rifles.

The Garand has its disadvantages, mainly the problem of needing an integral clip, but it does not suffer from being delicate. When firing it there is a feeling of solidity and positive action compared to the F-H, but this may be because of the way the F-H works with its secondary spring action.

Pictures show the rear of the 19 round magazine and the three mag pouch. I was also looking at an early F-H recently which has a ten round drum magazine which I had not seen before. Perhaps I should have mentioned that in WWI the RNAS used a small number of F-H rifles to arm aircrew.

Regards
TonyE

 

Managed to find out a bit more about semi-automatic rifles in service prior to World War Two, here's a selection...

RSC Model 1918 semi-auto rifle (France)


ZH-29 Semi-automatic rifle (Czechoslovakia)


M1908 Mondragon self-loading rifle (Switzerland/Mexico)


None of these early self-loading rifles were entirely satisfactory - one major factor was each one's sensitivity to dirt fouling, something that precluded their wide use - though they were available - during the First World War. Actually, it seems that it was the French RSC 1918 seems to have been the most hardy.

(Photo source: Modern Firearms - Îðóæèå)

HOWEVER - much to my surprise I actually managed to find some information on a BRITISH self-loader from the same period (1908-1918)...


(Photo source: REME Museum - REME Museum of Technology - Home Page)

This (above) is the little known Farquhar-Hill Hybrid self-loading rifle and was presented for selection to the War Department. Further more, this was just one of many self-loaders that were considered by the British Army between 1900 and the outbreak of the 1914-18 war.

The REME Museum notes that the Farquar-Hill was just as unsatisfactory as the others I had mentioned above - but that Major H J Farquhar-Hill made some improvements, but it was still turned down.

However, additional information I found on the Great War Forum seems to suggest that Major Farquhar-Hill overcame his earlier problems...

'Farquhar Hill rifle Serial No.8 as tested at 3rd Army in France in late 1917, who reported it had "great possibilities in skilled hands"...'

However, the war ended and for some reason the impetus was lost. A pity - if development had continued we may have been equipped with a serviceable self-loader in 1939!

I've recently seen claims the Germans purchased a batch of a few thousand of the Mondragon rifles from SiG circa 1916 and issued them for use on the Western Front. SiG had made the rifles for Mexico & they had not yet been paid for. The Mondragon gas operating system was originally patented in the 1880s by a Mexican army officer. Several self loading rifle and fully automatic rifle designs were derived from the original from the 1890s through the 1920s.

The Russian engineer Fedorov designed a selfloader after 1900. It entered limited production in Russia in 1916 & a few thousand examples of the Federov Avtomat were built by 1917.

It appears selfloading designs were increasingly common from 1910, but they had trouble catching on until the 1940s

 

Whilst what you say is true, the Mondragons were used by the German air service, not the infantry. For ground use the Germans experimented with the early Mauser self loading rifles.

As the original question was about infantry use I did not mention British air use except as an afterthought in my last post. As well as the F-H rifles used by the RNAS, the Royal Flying Corps purchased a number of Winchester Model 1907 rifles in .351" calibre and issued ball and tracer ammunition for them. The French used these for both air and ground use also.

It seems that these rifles were modified for use by aircrew wearing gloves as this example shows an enlarged trigger guard and cocking plunger. There are also screw holes in the receiver to attach a case catcher (now missing) and a higher capacity magazine.

Regards
TonyE

 

The Swedish AG-42 Ljungman was also in use from 1942, and the bolt design adopted by other manufacturers ( FN, Colt)

Spider

 

I was under the impression that the Farquhar Hill Pattern 1918 was fully automatic rather than semi-automatic (that being the reason for the metal hand guard and 19 round magazine), can someone confirm or was it actually only semi-automatic?

 

I don't believe that was the case, but cannot confirm it.

I have the RNAS manual for the earlier version and that was definitely semi only, as was the one I fired which probably dated from around 1912-13.

I have looked at a couple of the type that were tested in France (and which the Pattern 1918 would have been based on) and they were also semi only.

The drum magazine also dates from before the P.1918 when it was semi only.

Regards
TonyE

 

Tony,

Thanks for that, my curiosity is raised for two reasons, obviously there do seem to be places that say the Pattern 1918 was fully automatic, but also the last version trialled after the war (early 20s) was apparently an LMG rather than a semi-auto. However as the weapon was designated Rifle, .303 inch, Pattern 1918 and not equipped with a bipod I suspect it probably was semiautomatic.

The drum magazine is also curious, surely it must have resulted in a very heavy weapon? In addition they must have found a way of integrating the 3 drum carriers into the webbing issued at the time in a manner that allowed the carrier to carry 6 drums (2 3 drum carriers) or the operator would have taken a significant reduction in ammunition carriage when he was carrying a weapon that would likely result in greater ammunition expenditure and combat experience had shown that assaults against fixed positions would require greater ammunition carriage?

As if that was not curious enough the drums must have taken considerable production effort compared to the simple stripper clips of the Enfields and Pattern 1914s and even the box magazines of the earlier Farquhar Hill prototypes. And all when Great Britain was fighting industrial total war!?