I am looking for the TO&E of a British Pioneer Battalion. The Canadian version was based on this. Thanks,
Which particular period are you looking at? I don't have any actual tables for these units, but it's possible to piece together what was issued. The War Establishments for the original AMPC were published in the Jan-Jun 1940 period, then reissued as Pioneer Corps units in during Jan-Jun 1942, Jan-Mar 1943 and latterly Jan-Jun 1944. There were separate WE tables for the HQ of a Pio Gp (roughly speaking a Bn sized unit), then for the HQ of a Coy and the actual Sections themselves (which I suspect were Platoon sized subunits). Gary
Gary of course is correct. There was no Pioneer Battalion as such. The Pioneer Group was the equivalent, consisting of a headquarters and a variable number of companies. Pioneer companies could also vary but consisted of a Company Headquarters and a variable number of sections. In 1944 sections were of 53 all ranks. Five sections a company was usual but could vary according to the role. Mike
As I am trying to piece together the Canadian version, which was based on the early war British version, then I guess that I am looking for the 1940. Thanks.
Any chance you are looking for a Infantry (Pioneer) Battalion? Anyone know what their role was? http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/40_org/non-div/inf_pion-bn.html At the bottom there is: WE III/1931/32H1
Good thought Earthican. There were Infantry Pioneer Battalions which were Territorial infantry battalions sent to France with limited equipment and used as labour. Mike
(Just saw that during my posting two more posts came in - sorry for double information.) There is a War Establishment existent named "A Pioneer Battalion", published in Volume III: III/1931/32 H/1 (15 pages) Notified in the A.C.Is. for week ending 31st January, 1940 A Pioneer Battalion Consisting of - Battalion headquarters, headquarter company of signal, A.A., anti-gas and adminstrative platoons; and 4 rifle companies each of 3 platoons of 4 sections. Note Pioneer battalions are provided in order that a disciplined body of skilled labour may be available for work in the divisional area. These units will normally work under the general direction of the Chief Engineer or C.R.E of the areas to which they are allotted. When employed as a whole, a battalion will work under the orders of its own C.O. on a specific task laid down by the C.E. or C.R.E. When a battalion is employed split up for work with Field Companies, R.E, each party will take its orders from the Field Company commander concerned. A second one in volume III might probably fit “nearly”: III/1931/32 G/1 (13 pages) Notified in the A.C.Is. for week ending 03rd January, 1940 An Infantry (Pioneer) Battalion Consisting of: - Battalion headquarters; headquarter company of signal, A.A., pioneer and administrative platoons; and 3 rifle companies each of 3 platoons of 4 sections Special interim war establishment Other pioneer units’ war establishments are held in volume IV: Headquarters of a Group, Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps IV/1931/71 (2 pages) A.C.I.: 26th June, 1940 Headquarters of an Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps Company IV/1931/72 A/2 (2 pages), A.C.I: 26 th June, 1940 An Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps Section IV/1931/72 B/2 (2 pages), A.C.I: 26 th June, 1940 Headquarters, Pioneer Corps Company IV/72 A/3 (2 pages) , A.C.I: 17 th June, 1942; effective: 30th April, 1942 Pioneer Corps Section IV/72 B/3 (1 page), A.C.I: 03rd March, 1943; effective: 10th February, 1943 Headquarters, Pioneer Corps Company IV/72 A/4 (3 pages), A.C.I: 12th January, 1944; effective: 30th December, 1943 Headquarters of a Group, Pioneer Corps IV/71/3 (2 pages), A.C.I: 05th April, 1944; effective: 10th March, 1944 I have photos of all the above mentioned, but usually in an “unlucky” size of about 2.5 MB. Too large to post here, and having reduced them only a bit, they will be unreadable here (my experience yet, I am open to any advice). If anyone interested would PM me, I will send them via e-mail. Aixman
The 12th, 23rd and 46th Divs of the BEF in 1940 are all noted as being employed for Labour duties. Joslen states that they left all their RA units, the bulk of Div Sigs and some unidentified elements in the UK. Oddly enough I don't have a copy of III/1931/32H/1 that's detailed above, but do of III/1931/32G/1. It is for three Rifle Coys, rather than the four of 32H/1 on Leo's site. Aixman can fill in the blanks, but the three Coy version skips the Platoon numbers 3 and 4, which were normally held by the Mortar and Carrier Pls respectively. My inkling has always been that the 32G/1 table was used by Inf Bns within the three Labour duties Divs of the BEF, and they would revert to standard Inf Bn org when their works duties were complete. If there's a 32G/1 and a 32H/1, for three and four Rifle Coys, it suggests both types of WE were in use. As the original post referenced Canadian units, I don't think that the Inf (Pio) Bns WEs would fit, as the Canadians deployed their 1st Div on the standard model. Gary
Gary You are right (of course)! The platoons: No. 1: signal platoon No. 2: A.A. platoon No. 5: anti-gas and pioneer platoon No. 6: administrative platoon. The four companies have one platoon (nos. 7, 10, 13, 16) led by a subaltern and two platoons led by W.Os., class III, each. Total: 822 all ranks + 8 attached
Thank you all for your posts. The Canadian Pioneer Battalion had officers leading all of the platoons and had more transportation. It was 30 officers and 707 other ranks. Pioneer was dropped soon after.
John, If I'm understanding correctly, you're looking for the Royal Canadian Engineer Battalion war establishment, these being the units that came over to the UK and assisted in much of the pioneer type work for defence building? I'm not very familiar with them, but have seen a few references and this one caught my eye; "Three engineer battalions from GHQ and LoC troops; these units had no counterpart in the British Army", and "The engineer battalion was a distinctively Canadian unit, which performed the same function as field companies and artizan companies of the Royal Engineers." Those are from cmhq168 which is available online. I still can't paste into posts I'm afraid to provide a link, but you should be able to find it if you search for cmhq 168. If my assumption about these units is correct, then the AMPC and Pio Corps WEs won't relate to them as the Canadian units were 'engineers proper' so to speak. They may have used a mixture of British RE WEs, but my instinct says there was more likely a Canadian issued WE for them. Gary
Gary you are correct, but according to the Official history of the RCE it states that it was based on the British Pioneer Bn, but with more officers and transportation. I will check out CMHQ 168. Thanks.
Aixman What is volume III and IV? You said: There is a War Establishment existent named "A Pioneer Battalion", published in Volume III: Other pioneer units’ war establishments are held in volume IV:
John This is the way British war establishments were organized - sorry, I thought it was all too clear. Originally, there were only four volumes. With the war going on, the system grew to 16 volumes, each containing, roughly spoken, a theatre of war. As the following links might tend to confuse a bit: III - HQ and fighting units of GHQ, army and corps troops IV - Lines of communications troops http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Army_Establishments_after_1888:_A_Note_on_their_Organisation_and_Indexing Sometimes war establishments are published under different volumes, though they may not differ. So you might not necessarily find new information in the war establishment under another volume.
Yes, it was clear, well clearish. I thought that we were talking about a PAM and I guess that I wasn't too far off. I didn't know that they were organized as such. Thanks for the link. Now I am wondering how to get my hands on a copy.
I took photos in TNA Kew. What I wanted to say is, please tell me the number and I will see what I can do for you. (see post No. 9) I only lost the focus of what you are really searching for. By the way, just to make clear: "volume" is virtual, not a kind of book. It is the first (roman) part of the WE No., as in III/1931/32H/1: volume III (HQ and fighting units of GHQ, army and corps troops) table 32H version 1 The same table could theoretically appear under let's say volume IV for L of C troops, but under a different number. A good example are the R.A.S.C. bricks, appearing in several volumes under different table numbers, as the cover different units belonging to the volumes mentioned. I have been trying to understand the British WE system in detail for the last three years, when I got a friendly kick from a nice member here. When I first got to Kew, I found an astonishing number of WEs. I decided to try to understand the system from within. Next week, I hope to complete what is held in Kew (years 1931 to 1945). I guess we talk about 60.000 pages. The system is not complete in any way: There seems to be no systems of complete table numbers, starting with 1 and counting on. Lots are missing and seem to have been never released, not even used. The man in charge chose, let's say, number 967, after having released numer 250. Though there are certain batches in the weekly releases. There are no complete version numbers, starting with 1. Some have only a version 2 or 3, though they refer to a superseded version 1, that is not existing (in Kew). Some were not published intentionally (volume VIII), but some seem to be surrogated by another table in another volume Sometimes I feel that I am getting far and further from my target.
