British Defences

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Dpalme01, Jun 20, 2005.

  1. 26delta

    26delta Senior Member

    I am sure that many local anti-invasion defences, now long gone, are unrecorded, except perhaps in some dusty town hall archives if they have not been thrown out.

    For instance, I remember there being a pillbox at the rear of our local railway station which was not part of any obvious line of defence and some anti-tank obstacles in another part of the town, again not part of any larger network of defences.

    Finally, I think this topic belongs on UK Home Front, so I moved it. Any objections?

    The UK wasn't the only place to have innovative anti-invasion defences. I'm part of a group trying to track down the remains of 118 pillboxes/machine gun nests/anti-tank defences that were sited throughout the Auckland, New Zealand region. According to local reports, many of the pillboxes were disguised as the bases of water tanks and footings of houses built in the hillside. To-date, 72 of those 118 sites have been confirmed. There may have been others that were not recorded.

    I think some of the anti-tank devices used in "Star Wars: Return of the Jedi" were based on British WWII devices. We discovered channels to force tanks to travel between dead-drops that could destroy the turret or roll a tank as the treads made contact with loose pipes on a hillside. Any supporting infantry would come under fire of the hidden machine gun emplacements.

    I understand that the Australians employed some of the same techniques. That being said... I think the topic is more prominent than just the UK home front.
     
  2. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I recently noted pillboxes covering the rail-bridge at Kew there is one covering the north side of the bridge the second about 100 meters south of the bridge on the right hand side of the track traveling south. The firing slots have been bricked up.

    Really? I've been at Kew Bridge quite a bit and never noticed them! Are they obscured by foliage or something? If you have a picture I'd love to take a look.
     
  3. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Ah, I missed the part about the RAILWAY bridge--was thinking of the road bridge.

    And here they are:
    London
    London

    I must have passed them dozens of times on the train. I didn't know then what a wartime British pillbox looked like. If I noticed them at all I must have assumed they were some kind of railway structure.
     
  4. cptpies

    cptpies Member

    Download the Defence of Britain Google earth overlay if you want to know where the rest of them are. Linked below
     
  5. Big Sandy

    Big Sandy Member

    One thing my youngest and I intend to do this summer during his school holidays, is try and find as many of the rapidly vanishing bunkers, pillboxes, and defences in our area and photograph them before they are gone forever. These things are rapidly vanishing, and I dont think they should be lost. People forget all too easily..

    You may find this page on Caithness.org interesting...there is another page here ( the link is at the bottom of the first article)

    We are also about 20 miles from a Chain Home radar installation.
     
  6. Toby

    Toby Member

    Dad painted Churchill talking to a tatered Roman soldier coming out of the sea. He did this while a POW in Changi and one meaning may be....
    " The Third Reich (from 1933 to 1945), called Nazi Germany, was under Hitler’s control. He called it the Third Reich because he thought that under his leadership Germany could reunite the old Holy Roman Empire, bringing Germany back to its glorious days. This Reich was terminated with the fall of Germany at the end of World War II. This is an interesting question because most people don’t know why Hitler started World War II and what was his objective. Of course his delusional beliefs about the supremacy of the German Race and the necessity to reinstate The German Empire (that he believed was the heir of the Roman splendor) cost our world millions of lives, and his country years of poverty and suffering."
    Source: What were Germany's First Reich, Second Reich, and Third Reich? | Answerbag


    MOre can be seen on dad's website The Changi POW Artwork of Des Bettany | Prisoner of War at Changi, Singapore lovely if a few could assist with possible meanings behind this.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Do not doubt my statements that the Germans would have been in London quickly. What you must take on board that the German forces were at their very best and strongest at that time. had they been able to land they would quickly have overwhelmed our forces. For then we were in a shocking state of unpreparedness. The tale about Pikes is not fanciful..it was true..

    The Third Div was brought up to full fighting strength by robbing the others to have One fully equipped.

    let me repeat what I posted previously.here onthe South Coast there was a major invasion scare... Every man was called on to defend the coast...Civilians! I recall my father going off prepared to fight like many other men with a double barreled shotgun They were out waiting for tow or three days up at the cliffs and beaches.....

    I can recall being very relieved when my father returned ...
     
  8. Big Sandy

    Big Sandy Member

    What you must take on board that the German forces were at their very best and strongest at that time. had they been able to land they would quickly have overwhelmed our forces. For then we were in a shocking state of unpreparedness. The tale about Pikes is not fanciful..it was true.....

    I should think that they would also be feeling pretty invinceable at that time too, as everything else had really been pretty straightforward for them. I think that sort of feeling would make them more likely to jump in where angels fear to tread, our preparedness or not!
     
  9. cptpies

    cptpies Member

    Had we lost the Battle of Britain and Sealion been launched the main question is would they have made it across the channel in sufficient strength? The first wave would have made it but being dependent on further reinforcement and supply by sea until sufficient airfields were captured they were at the mercy of the Royal Navy who would have sallied forth pretty sharpish. The coastal crust and stop lines were only ever meant to slow an invading force down for long enough for the Navy to blockade the channel, not stop it as their name would suggest.
     
  10. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I am very proud ti have seen and experienced this land, in that time when we had nothing to defend ourselves with..For the UK that was a time of greatness. But contrary to some folks views we were defenceless. You cannot fight without rifles and bullets..... We were in reality open to invasion. I recall the great black bomber formations coming in from the channel and arrogantly low...... Ask any vet; you will get the same answer, we had nothing The Home guard had nothing .They would have been swept away in days despite putting up a great fight...

    Bless the RAF!
     
  11. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dear Sapper:

    What about the 52nd (Lowland) Division and the 15th Scottish Division ?

    The 52nd had only just been a very short time in France and were order back through Cherbourg for 'the final defence of the Realm'!

    The 15th were a young second-line division, but had quickly become trained and fully equipped and moved down from Scotland. At the time of Dunkirk they were concentrated around the River Blackwater on the Essex Coast, south of Clacton-on-sea and north of Southend-on-Sea, and remember occupying at first and last light a slit trench over-looking mined beaches two hundred yards to our front near the village of Bradwell-on-Sea. It was believed then as a possible German line of attack to either strike at London or by-pass it and cut it off from the rest of the country.

    Serious days!

    Joe Brown
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Joe. The units that came back from France often left their gear behind,There was precious little chance of transport to get it away.
    It was very serious time. I do know that other units were stripped of their arms to get one fully equipped div. We did not even have bullets.... for the army came out of Dunkirk with nothing. Not even their pants in many cases. And due to our complete unpreparedness we were not on a war footing....The rearming at speed was quite a remarkable task...That is why I am rather proud to have lived through those times
     
  13. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    Reading up on the Home Guard and the GHQ Blue Line along the Kennet and Avon Canal the 'standard anti-tank obstacle' was made up of dannert wire on a knife-rest of wood, covered by infantry posts with rifles (but not much ammunition) and molotov cocktails and using anti-tank mines with the wire....but there were no anti-tank mines available. In the summer of 1940 the Wiltshire HG unit I was studying had 100 rounds per section (half a dozen men) to be distributed as the leaders saw fit. This was 14th August 1940 so although the armament production was being built up neither the output from it or the imports mentioned in another thread had found its way to this group.
    The 'Wiltshire Striking Force' was to get into action in a number of buses and there were a handful of anti-tank guns and anti-tank rifles as they had all been left in France.
    Whilst 'in London by lunchtime' may be a bit of too quick it is hard to see the army that brought Blitzkrieg to Europe stopped by these weapons, even if used by brave men.
     
  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Reading up on the Home Guard and the GHQ Blue Line along the Kennet and Avon Canal the 'standard anti-tank obstacle' was made up of dannert wire on a knife-rest of wood, covered by infantry posts with rifles (but not much ammunition) and molotov cocktails and using anti-tank mines with the wire....but there were no anti-tank mines available. In the summer of 1940 the Wiltshire HG unit I was studying had 100 rounds per section (half a dozen men) to be distributed as the leaders saw fit. This was 14th August 1940 so although the armament production was being built up neither the output from it or the imports mentioned in another thread had found its way to this group.
    The 'Wiltshire Striking Force' was to get into action in a number of buses and there were a handful of anti-tank guns and anti-tank rifles as they had all been left in France.
    Whilst 'in London by lunchtime' may be a bit of too quick it is hard to see the army that brought Blitzkrieg to Europe stopped by these weapons, even if used by brave men.
    Hello Skoyen89

    a few photos here along the Kennet and Avon Canal
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/united-kingdom/46178-pill-box-kennet-avon-canal.html
    regards
    Clive
     
  15. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Yes they are just outside Newbury

    Could you start a thread re your photos?


    regards
    Clive
     
  17. Knouterer

    Knouterer Member

    On the question of small arms ammunition, the situation was as follows (apart from the about 130 million "surplus" .30 rifle/MG rounds bought from the USA, as mentioned above, which were for the most part delivered in July/August):

    At the beginning of June, a list (to be found in CAB 70/1) was submitted to the Defence Committee (Supply), a sub-committee of the War Cabinet chaired by Churchill himself, according to which the army at home had, as of 6.6.1940, 101 million .303 rounds on hand, and 88 million more were in France, of which 25 million were to be shipped back.
    The Air Ministry declared 142.6 million .303 rounds (including 28.8 million AP and 12.2 million incendiary), and the Admiralty a more modest 5.5 million.
    From 1.9.1939 to 31.5.1940, some 308 million .303 rounds had passed inspection, and the provisional forecast was that 90 million would pass in June, in addition to 2.13 million 7.92 mm (Besa MG), 0.7 million .5 (Vickers MG), 0.35 million .55 (AT rifle), 0.7 million .380 (revolver), and 169,000 15 mm AP (Besa HMG). For August the forecast was around 115 million .303 rounds, but this proved too optimistic; at a meeting of the abovementioned Committee on 15 July, Sir Harold Brown, Director-General of munitions production at the Ministry of Supply, adjusted it down to 15-20 million Mk VII and Mk VIII rounds per week in September, in addition to a million or two of other types of .303 ammunition. At the same time, the Commonwealth countries contributed a substantial amount – 67 million .303 rounds in August according to some sources. According to one source, there were 449 million .303 rounds (all types, all three Services) on hand on 30 Aug. and 442 million on 27 Sept. (agrees with COS document mentioned below).
    Production seems to have kept pace with expenditure, roughly, with a modest boost in stocks in Aug. thanks to the Commonwealth imports.
    According to a report submitted to the Chiefs of Staff on 12 October (COS(40)826), as of 29 Sept. the Army in Britain had 274.3 million .303 rounds on hand, including 11.1 in Central Ordnance Depots, the RAF 157.3 million and the Navy 10.5 million. Total holdings overseas for all three services were given as 248.8 million rounds.
     
  18. Knouterer

    Knouterer Member

    On the 12th of August, Gen. Brooke had reported to the Chiefs of Staff that “... small arms ammunition held by units was in no case more than 5% below the authorized scale, but there were no local reserves. Reserves of ammunition were treated in the same way as fighting troops; that is, they would be available to whatever sector was in danger of running out. The general feeling that there was a shortage of small arms ammunition had been created by the stringent restrictions on the use of small arms ammunition for training purposes. It had been possible recently to increase the training scale very considerably and this should have a reassuring psychological effect on the man in the front line.”

    However, at another CoS meeting on 14 October (CAB 79/7/23) he sounded much less optimistic. After it had been agreed that present production of .303 rounds would not permit constitution of an “Empire Army Reserve” of a hundred million rounds, Brooke drew attention to “… the shortage of ammunition available for training, for which only 2 million a week was allotted for an Army 1.8 million strong.” At the same meeting Sir Cyril Newall, Chief of the Air Staff, stated for his part that the RAF, “…whose allocation had been reduced to an absolute minimum, needed a considerably increased scale of ammunition for training.”
     
  19. Knouterer

    Knouterer Member

    At this time, the units on the "front line" (i.e. the likely invasion zones) were reasonably well provided with ammunition, as far as I have been able to find out, with the exception of 2" and 3" mortar bombs, of which there was a serious shortage.

    This assessment is confirmed by the War Diary of the 2nd/4th South Lancashire Regiment, guarding the coast near Walberswick, (as quoted on the Defence of Walberswick website: http://www.walberswickww2.co.uk/ ):

    26 July: “The Ammunition position is very happy, the Unit holding full War Scale of S.A.A. in forward positions, after having created a Battalion Reserve of 20,000. A surplus of rifles is held to meet replacements under repair. Revolvers to supply all officers in possession of Unit for first time. Unit now in position to carry out our own boot repairs and equipment repairs, as necessary kits are now in possession. Guns, etc., - Unit holds full complement of Bren Guns (50) and 12 2” Trench Mortars with bombs. No 3” Trench Mortars yet supplied to the Unit.”
    August, general: “During the month the Unit was instructed to submit 1098-mobilisation indents to complete all equipment to War Establishment scale. An interesting acquisition was the Thompson sub Machine Gun firing .45 bullets and 4 Hotchkiss guns. The two 3” Trench Mortars arrived at last but we are still awaiting another 8 anti-Tank rifles to complete our establishment. Towards the end of the month we received 7 Bedford trucks and three vans for the Motorcycle Platoon.”

    A fully equipped infantry battalion, according to War Establishment (WE II/1931/12F/1) would have 50 Brens with 1,000 rounds “on man or with gun” (normally divided over the members of the squad) plus 25,000 rounds in platoon/company/battalion reserve, and 734 rifles with 50 rounds per rifleman plus 68,000 in reserve, that’s nearly 180,000 .303 rounds in all. It can thus be calculated that an infantry division would need roughly 2.5 to 3 million rounds (depending, among other things, on whether it had a machine gun battalion attached) as first and second line ammunition.
    At another meeting of the Defence Committee (Supply) on 6 August (CAB 70/1), it was stated that “… on the accepted basis of a requirement of 6 million rounds per Division per month for active operations, the Army had stocks which would last it for 6 weeks.”
     

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