British Defences

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Dpalme01, Jun 20, 2005.

  1. Dpalme01

    Dpalme01 Member

    Just yesterday, I was reading about how the british were preparing their island for an invasion. Some of the defenses they used were rather interesting. Those underground pipelines which spewed oil to light any enemy ships on fire sounded rather eco- unfriendly :) but they would do the job extremely well.
    Those sea forts were also amazing. The thing is that there is so much said on the German defences (hedge hogs, rommel's asparagus etc.) but not a whole lot about the allies. Does anyone know any more about this?

    Thanks
     
  2. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by Dpalme01@Jun 20 2005, 11:15 PM
    Just yesterday, I was reading about how the british were preparing their island for an invasion.  Some of the defenses they used were rather interesting.  Those underground pipelines which spewed oil to light any enemy ships on fire sounded rather eco- unfriendly  :)  but they would do the job extremely well.
    Those sea forts were also amazing.  The thing is that there is so much said on the German defences (hedge hogs, rommel's asparagus etc.) but not a whole lot about the allies.  Does anyone know any more about this?

    Thanks
    [post=35526]Quoted post[/post]

    Hi Dalme01,

    Besides 18,000 pillboxes (huge number) many others can be seen at the following site.

    www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/

    Link Fixed Gnomey
     
  3. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I am sure that many local anti-invasion defences, now long gone, are unrecorded, except perhaps in some dusty town hall archives if they have not been thrown out.

    For instance, I remember there being a pillbox at the rear of our local railway station which was not part of any obvious line of defence and some anti-tank obstacles in another part of the town, again not part of any larger network of defences.

    Finally, I think this topic belongs on UK Home Front, so I moved it. Any objections?
     
  4. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Try "The Last Ditch," by David Lampe, and "Operation Sea Lion" by Peter Fleming, for more on Britain's defenses. They were pretty ingenious and desperate -- they even pulled pikes off of HMS Victory.
     
  5. halfyank

    halfyank Member

    I can recall reading about some interesting Home Guard devices or tactics. One was the "pike" that was nothing more than a bayonet welded to a piece of pipe to make it about as long as a rifle with bayonet. Another was the anti-tank team that was supposed to jam a piece of railroad track into the sprocket on a tank, to disable it. Then another team member threw a blanket over the engine. Finally a third threw a bucket of petrol onto the blanket, while another team member ignited it. Pretty imaginative, if possibly not very effective.
     
  6. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

  7. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    they even pulled pikes off of HMS Victory.



    That story has always interested me, because my father joined the Home guard in may 1940 and was made "tommy Gunner". he did mention that some men had brought weapons that they had kept since WW1.


    he used to tell the story of September 15th 1940 when the invasion was sounded. he and two others were sent to a local piece of marsh land known as the Moss.

    The two other were veterans of the first war and they set up a checkpoint on a path. around about midnight, they saw a shadowy figure coming down the path towards them. With the confidence which can only come from youth, my father shouted to the figure, "Halt! Who goes there? Friend or Foe?" A voice from the darkness shouted "jesus, Mary and Joseph"! To which one of the others shouted back "Pass the Holy Family"!!!!
    View attachment 810
     
  8. jamesicus

    jamesicus Senior Member

    In Burnley -- in 1939 -- there were not enough truncheons to equip the Special Police and Air Raid Wardens. Local Billiard Halls (Mechanics Institute, Weavers Institute, Burtons, et al.) contributed billiard cues which were cut down so that they were about two feet long (butt) and a leather wrist strap was attached via a hole drilled through the small end.
     
  9. jamesicus

    jamesicus Senior Member

    ..... they even pulled pikes off of HMS Victory.

    This British 9ft long naval boarding pike was regulation from 1800 to 1815. The square section iron head was reinforced with langets -- as was the staff tip -- which also strengthened and protected the ash staff. Pikes were used extensively for defense against boarding actions and were also used in offensive actions. Very few have survived with their original staffs intact -- they were usually sawn off at a suitable length for crossed pair displays on the walls of naval service clubs, Admiralty offices, etc.

    [​IMG]
    British naval boarding pike (fore shortened view)

    [​IMG]
    Showing iron tip -- unaltered British naval boarding pike

    2005 -- two hundred anniversary year of the Battle of Trafalgar
     
  10. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The British defences were absolute rubbish. had the Germans invaded they would have been in London by mid-day.

    After the fall of France we had one Division that was fully armed....just one. That was my old Division. Monty's Div, Third British Infantry.

    They cobbled together enough arms to make it viable, but we had nothing else, The div was supposed to return to France to continue the fight, but before that could take place, France capitulated.

    The Home Guard was armed with Pikes from the British Museum! Sticky bombs. Molotov cocktails and first world war rifles.

    I was in the Home Guard at that time, and was sent out at night to defend the flyover bridge that led into Southampton, we were issued with two rounds for our rifles!
    One was accidently fired, so I had to defend that bridge from incoming German Para's with one rifle bullet!

    Sounds almost farcical now...Then? it was exactly like that.
    Sapper
     
  11. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    AS a matter of interest my Home Guard base was at Redbridge, Southampton. Just in case anyone reads these pages and remembers?
    Sapper
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oh I forgot to mention, there is one, pre d day fortification at Studland in the isle of Purbeck "Fort Henry"
    Sapper
     
  13. Dpalme01

    Dpalme01 Member

    If Im getting it correctly, after France fell, Britain was extremely vunerable, but then they made an effort to start defending themselves. It sounds sort of how the US was at pearl harbor. They were extremely weak on the west coast. If the Japanese had gone for the continental US, they could have probably even held it.
    The british had defended themselves rather far inland by the end of the war

    Some of those tactics/conditions sound so wild, dangerous and almost useless that it would be a joke if any army were in that condition again.

    Thank you all. Sapper- your testimonies and accounts are especially appreciated
     
  14. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    To be honest we were defenceless. The great war was still having a great influence in Britain. It was only 21 years since the end of a war that had drained Britainof its manhood, before the next one was upon us.

    The years pre-war were times when little, if any preparation for war was made. What little defence there was, was to say the least..... totally inadequate.

    It is a time that I recall only too well.
    Sapper
     
  15. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Dpalme01@Jun 21 2005, 11:58 AM
    Some of those tactics/conditions sound so wild, dangerous and almost useless that it would be a joke if any army were in that condition again.
    [post=35590]Quoted post[/post]

    But you always have to remember with the Germans and cold steel that they don't like it up 'em.

    (Joke to anyone familiar with the Dad's Army comedy series)
     
  16. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by sapper@Jun 21 2005, 07:30 AM
    The British defences were absolute rubbish. had the Germans invaded they would have been in London by mid-day.

    After the fall of France we had one Division that was fully armed....just one. That was my old Division. Monty's Div, Third British Infantry.

    They cobbled together enough arms to make it viable, but we had nothing else, The div was supposed to return to France to continue the fight, but before that could take place, France capitulated.

    The Home Guard was armed with Pikes from the British Museum! Sticky bombs. Molotov cocktails and first world war rifles.

    I was in the Home Guard at that time, and was sent out at night to defend the flyover bridge that led into Southampton, we were issued with two rounds for our rifles!
    One was accidently fired, so I had to defend that bridge from incoming German Para's with one rifle bullet!

    Sounds almost farcical now...Then? it was exactly like that.
    Sapper
    [post=35586]Quoted post[/post]


    Most of what you said is extremely accurate, but the 1st Canadian Division was also in fairly good shape, despite its brief trip to France. The division only lost about 12 or so men, mostly through road accidents, and never saw the enemy. It did not leave too many vehicles behind, either. Because it was in good strength and made of big tough Canadians, it was held as GHQ Reserve near London...and stayed there for three years.

    Ultimately, 1st Canadian Division saw its first action in Sicily in 1943.
     
  17. jamesicus

    jamesicus Senior Member

    ..... he did mention that some men had brought weapons that they had kept since WW1.

    One of my uncles had his Webley revolver from WW1 -- my father had a French bayonet he had appropriated.
     
  18. halfyank

    halfyank Member

    The main thing though about the British defenses is that first the Germans had to GET THERE. That meant crossing the Chanel when the RAF and RN put every asset they had into stopping them. Like the British admiral supposedly said about the French, "I don't say they can't come, I just say they can't come by sea."
     
  19. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    We should not laugh too much at some of the improvised weapons etc. which appeared rather briefly in 1940.

    This was a time when the US army could have only put five divisions in the field, less that the BEF in 1914. The beginnings were underway in introducing conscription and building it up, but they still had no tanks to speak of and were using pipes to simulate anti-tank guns and mortars in training. All sounds a bit familiar.

    So, we were not alone in 1940 in a sense.
     
  20. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999@Jun 22 2005, 04:42 AM
    We should not laugh too much at some of the improvised weapons etc. which appeared rather briefly in 1940.

    This was a time when the US army could have only put five divisions in the field, less that the BEF in 1914. The beginnings were underway in introducing conscription and building it up, but they still had no tanks to speak of and were using pipes to simulate anti-tank guns and mortars in training. All sounds a bit familiar.

    So, we were not alone in 1940 in a sense.
    [post=35641]Quoted post[/post]

    In maneuvers in 1940 and 1941, the Americans put signs on cars that read "Truck" and signs on trucks that read "Tank" to fill in for the vehicles not yet off the Chrysler assembly line. When George Patton ran out of gas in one maneuver, he bought fuel and tools from a gas station with his own money. Patton was independently wealthy, having inherited and married money. On the other hand, other officers were broke, but still expected to "entertain." They would borrow silver service sets from department stores and return them. After a while, the department stores told them they would offer no more loans -- the sets were coming back scratched beyond repair.

    US Army logistics sergeants found their blankets still bloodstained from the Argonne, and lanterns on shelves that read "Mfg 1863." Another division lost a mule carrying supplies during a maneuver when it shot down a river and vanished, so it reported that anything missing from their inventory had to be on that mule. It was the most heavily-laden mule in history.
     

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