British/Commonwealth POW's and the Italian armistice

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by andy007, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Hi Brian,
    According to the official history 108 NZers made it out through Switzerland, is possible that the other 15 didn't make reports or the reports have disappeared in the last 60 odd years?
    Interesting you mention only 2 making it through Allied Lines, The Official history believes there were 339 NZers who made it to Allied lines. Any idea why there is such a discrepancy?
     
  2. nnaynnad

    nnaynnad Junior Member

    My Father was recently buried at the Rock Island (IL) Arsenal. He was a WWII veteran being discharged from the Army late 1946. His grave marker states WWII and Korean. We questioned the Korean part as he was not in the service in 1950 when the Korean (war) conflict started. They (military funeral advisor) said that the Korean part was std. We don’t believe that this is right so can anyone shed some light on this?

    This is my first post so I hope this is how it is done...
     
  3. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi Brian,
    According to the official history 108 NZers made it out through Switzerland, is possible that the other 15 didn't make reports or the reports have disappeared in the last 60 odd years?
    Interesting you mention only 2 making it through Allied Lines, The Official history believes there were 339 NZers who made it to Allied lines. Any idea why there is such a discrepancy?


    There are two possibilities Andy; the reports may have aroused the interest of J.A.G. and been extracted but not returned.
    They could be listed in the 1940 - 1945 Lists. These indicate 89 escaped through Switzerland but moved on. I have stumbled across others in this group who have also escaped through Switzerland which the reference doesn't indicate. It is known that at least one group of Post Armistace Reports are "missing". I have found reference to two others.
    Given time I will complete the list by going through those files and post the results.
     
  4. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    My Father was recently buried at the Rock Island (IL) Arsenal. He was a WWII veteran being discharged from the Army late 1946. His grave marker states WWII and Korean. We questioned the Korean part as he was not in the service in 1950 when the Korean (war) conflict started. They (military funeral advisor) said that the Korean part was std. We don’t believe that this is right so can anyone shed some light on this?

    This is my first post so I hope this is how it is done...

    Welcome to the Forum;

    the first thing you should do is obtain a copy of his Service Record which should clear this mystery up.

    Brian
     
  5. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    Have you read Eric Newby's "Love and War in the Apennines"?
     
  6. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    There are two possibilities Andy; the reports may have aroused the interest of J.A.G. and been extracted but not returned.
    They could be listed in the 1940 - 1945 Lists. These indicate 89 escaped through Switzerland but moved on. I have stumbled across others in this group who have also escaped through Switzerland which the reference doesn't indicate. It is known that at least one group of Post Armistace Reports are "missing". I have found reference to two others.
    Given time I will complete the list by going through those files and post the results.
    That makes sense Brian, I am guessing J.A.G is the J.A.G of TV series fame albeit WWII vintage?

    Have you read Eric Newby's "Love and War in the Apennines"?
    Unfortunately I haven't Vitesse but am aware of it. Due to time and space restraints I have had to restrict the study to NZ POWs and pre armistice. I have "Love and War in the Apennines" on my future reading list once time permits whenever that maybe!
     
  7. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    That's right Andy.

    There were quite a few that were on the run that were shot. Not forgetting that some of the Italians who helped them suffered similarly.
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    That's right Andy.

    There were quite a few that were on the run that were shot. Not forgetting that some of the Italians who helped them suffered similarly.

    Hope you don't mind - may be of interest - Rotherfield's photos here show a memorial to one such incident.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/italy/26504-cardito-memorial.html
     
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that Diane.
     
  10. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    What I am looking for is information whether online or published that would be helpful with this endeavour. I have so far read through the relevant of the NZ Official War histories. But other than that I am at a bit of a loss when it comes to primary sources. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated too.


    Andy

    This is a quote from my own book, A British Boy in Fascist Italy, which is due to be published on 1 September

    ... inertia affected many Allied POWs detained in Italian camps; the many who decided to sit tight, expecting a rapid, unopposed advance of Allied forces, were simply rounded up and taken off to Germany. General Montgomery, as he then was, issued an order to the head of MI9, the military intelligence service for escaped prisoners of war in occupied Europe, which was secretly communicated to the Italian POW camps: they should ‘Keep fit and stay put’ and await the arrival of Allied troops – aptly described by one historian as ‘rather stupid advice’, it proved to be very helpful to the Germans.
    The historian I refer to is Philip Morgan, see The Fall of Mussolini, page 127.

    Whilst researching my book I came across a quite remarkable story of a South African PoW, an engineer called Frank Ellis. He was in the 2nd South African Infantry Division captured at Tobruk, where he lost an eye. In September 1943, released, he made his way north and joined an Italian partisan band in Piedmont, fighting for seven months under the nome de guerre 'Franco'. In June 1944 he was captured along with 45 partisans and was about to be shot at Fondotoce. At the last moment he and two other partisans were hauled out ot the group and taken to Verbania and from there Frank Ellis was removed to Germany, possibly Berlin. He survived the war and later gave evidence about the Fondotoce massacre. Unfortunately I can't find any trace of him in English language sources. There is mention of him here :: Casa della Resistenza - La Storia - Parco della Memoria e della Pace ::

    and here Ecosistemaverbano

    He was possibly still in the group photo of the Partisans made to carry the placard; the woman in the centre front beneath the placard is Cleonice Tomassetti, a very brave partisan courier; she was in the first bartch of three to be shot. As the Germans were about to open fire she called out in a strong voice "Let's show them we know how to die boys! Long live Italy!"
     
  11. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    That's right Andy.

    There were quite a few that were on the run that were shot. Not forgetting that some of the Italians who helped them suffered similarly.

    I thought as much Brian, as I understand theres not really a list anywhere of what compensation was given to Italians for helping POWs?

    Hope you don't mind - may be of interest - Rotherfield's photos here show a memorial to one such incident.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/italy/26504-cardito-memorial.html

    Thank you Diane, Some very interesting photos from Rotherfield.

    Andy

    This is a quote from my own book, A British Boy in Fascist Italy, which is due to be published on 1 September

    The historian I refer to is Philip Morgan, see The Fall of Mussolini, page 127.

    Whilst researching my book I came across a quite remarkable story of a South African PoW, an engineer called Frank Ellis. He was in the 2nd South African Infantry Division captured at Tobruk, where he lost an eye. In September 1943, released, he made his way north and joined an Italian partisan band in Piedmont, fighting for seven months under the nome de guerre 'Franco'. In June 1944 he was captured along with 45 partisans and was about to be shot at Fondotoce. At the last moment he and two other partisans were hauled out ot the group and taken to Verbania and from there Frank Ellis was removed to Germany, possibly Berlin. He survived the war and later gave evidence about the Fondotoce massacre. Unfortunately I can't find any trace of him in English language sources. There is mention of him here :: Casa della Resistenza - La Storia - Parco della Memoria e della Pace ::

    and here Ecosistemaverbano

    He was possibly still in the group photo of the Partisans made to carry the placard; the woman in the centre front beneath the placard is Cleonice Tomassetti, a very brave partisan courier; she was in the first bartch of three to be shot. As the Germans were about to open fire she called out in a strong voice "Let's show them we know how to die boys! Long live Italy!"

    Thanks for the information Peter, I have read some of Philip Morgan's work on the suggestion of my research supervisor and found it most interesting as I had almost zilch knowledge above the basic stuff on Italian civilians during the war. I wish I could incorporate the post armistice events into my thesis, there are some bloody interesting stories! But space unfortunately doesn't allow it.... could be something for the future? hehe
     
  12. eNZedFred

    eNZedFred Junior Member

    G'day Andy,
    Dad was in the Taranaki Company, 19th Wellington Battalion.
    Here is a bit of his story :
    We have a set of letters that he sent home, the last from the Middle East being 15 June 1942. He was posted missing 15 July.
    On 3 October Mum was listening to the Vatican Radio and heard his name as a prisoner of war.
    He had been taken prisoner on Ruweisat Ridge.
    His first night in captivity was in a compound that had been made to house German prisoners, he was then marched to Sidi Hussein near Benghazi.
    He then went to Taranto, and then probably PG75 at Bari.
    The first letter as a prisoner is dated 4 November 1942 and is from PG 57, Gruppignano. "I am feeling well and have just finished off a Red Cross parcel. It's raining but we are nice and dry in huts. "
    2/12/1942 "............ I wish that I was home in Awakino. ........"
    19 /12/1942 "........ Still no mail for me and I would like photos from home, as I lost my collection when I was captured. We are getting lots of rain but not so cold. "
    06/01/1943 " We had a good Xmas with plenty to eat from parcels. We had pudding, cake, biscuits and sweets. Thrilled to get first letter from Mother. Only allowed to send one letter and one card per week. Having heavy frosts and snow."
    06/03/43 " ........ Received a parcel from NZ House, it had 200 cigarettes. We are expecting clothing soon with a pound of chocolate. ............ "
    29/03/43 " ...... moved to another camp, PG 120-5. I was one of 50 picked to go and work on a farm. .... Hard work to start with. ." (At Abano, near Padua)
    12/04/43 Reports being fit and well, but no mail at this camp. Beautiful weather, very hot. Have to work 8 hours per day. Re Cross parcels arriving weekly.
    27/04/43 Had just returned from an ANZAC service at church. Now weighed 13 stone 12 pound.
    01/06/43 Received first mail for over 3 months. Beautiful weather, only wearing boots and shorts to work.
    06/07/43 Last letter from Italy.
    Early Sept to 31 December 1943 Dad lived in the hill country nearby. The group he was with had intended to make for Venice.
    Upon capture he went by train in cattle cars through the Brenner Pass. He ended up in Stalag 7A at Moosberg. His war history shows him there on 13 March 1944.
    The first letter from Germany is 17/02/1944. " ..... I have not been able to write for a long spell. I am now in Germany after having nearly 4 months 'holiday' in Italy before being re-captured. We had quite a good time and the people treated us quite well. Was caught on the 31st December, so was free for Xmas. It is very cold here now, plenty of snow and very little sun. ... very well and fit, getting parcels regular. ........."
    In this letter he also reports another person in the camp. Amazingly they had worked together in the small rural community of Waikawau before the war.
    This letter had 4B marked on it.
    His war record shows that he was transferred to 4D on 14 April 1944.
    06/03/1944 This letter is marked 4D. " .......... I am fit and well. I am out on a working party now, but as yet have not started work, so I don't know what it will be. ......" He reported lots of snow lying about, the fact that his birthday was coming up and that 6 months previous he thought he would be having it at home. Red Cross parcels arriving weekly.
    Dad once told a story about a German Shepherd dog being sent into a hut full of Russians who had refused to come out; the only thing to come out was the dog's skin.
    17/04/1944 Reports that he can't write as often as Italy, fit and well, but receiving no mail. Had a concert on Easter Sunday. Only 11 New Zealanders among 300 others. 5 did a haka and sang maori songs. Red Cross parcels weekly, a New Zealand parcel expected next week.
    21/05/1944 Reports that he was fit and well, in the best of health and receiving parcels regularly, but no mail. Cigarette parcels from London House were arriving again. He hoped to be sent to a New Zealand camp soon, with only 11 of them there. Thought that he would be working nights again soon.
    19/06/1944 Reports getting 12 letters, re-addressed from Italy. He gives a hint as to his work, saying he has 2 weeks off, from a railway sleeper dropping on his finger and taking the nail off. He had also been informed that his farm had been sold.
    10/07/1944 " ... News is good these days, it won't be long now."
    10/09/1943 Reported receiving mail via the Red Cross in London. Starting on half a parcel per week. He thought the parcels were coming via Sweden.
    15/10/1944 Reports getting mail, and that food parcels are down to every two weeks. Weather getting colder, just finished work as they only do 8 hours on Sundays.
    05/11/1944 Reports that he been getting mail, having received 67 letters while in Germany. Had a chocolate parcel from his mother, and half a pound of tobacco from London House. Very cold, not much sun, pretty well set up for clothes and boots. Off work with a bad arm.
    20/11/1944 Mail not so good any more. Has the day off, every third Sunday. Had great hopes of being out for Xmas. "Pleased to hear that Charlie Cartwright got out, some chaps here from his camp who weren't so lucky."
    About 04/12/1944 Reports that food parcels have run out. Received some 1943 mail. Gets paid 2 pounds a month in Marks.
    Dad's last letter from Germany is 07/01/1945. "Another year has gone by and I'm still a long way from home." He reports that parcels were arriving again, this week being NZ ones. "A lot of new chaps are coming here every week now - its getting a big camp."
    Dad was liberated by American forces on Friday the 13th, April. He was in Margate ten days later.
    His next letter is from Margate on 26 April. "At last I am writing from a civilised country. It is a wonderful feeling to be free again after nearly 3 years behind barbed wire working for Deutschland. I am fit and well and putting on weight fast."
    Reported being there for three days, mostly taken up by medical attention and being re-clothed. "Our camp was near Halle, we came to Namur in Belgium by plane and then by train and boat only took 3 days when we got started, after having to wait for transport. Friday the 13th was lucky for me."
     
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  13. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Brilliant stuff Fred!! Thank you for sharing that with us. Some interesting info in there.
    Any idea who else was in the group with him on the run in Italy?
     
  14. eNZedFred

    eNZedFred Junior Member

    I may be able to find out who was with him.
    Long ago I remember Mum saying that he was with a shorter dark complexioned man who was able to move among the Italians with anonimity (? spelling). Dad was over 6 feet tall and with fair hair and blue eyes. He was more obvious.
    I have some letters from an Italian family that wrote to him for assistance after the war. One letter was in Italian and years ago I went to a translator. The language was very basic with local dialect. Another was in English and was being written by a Doctor's wife on behalf of others.
    I had heard that some locals that had assisted prisoners were treated pretty poorly; their furniture being burnt and being turned out from their homes. I am not sure of the truth of that though, just something I once heard.
    Cheers.
    PS. Any idea about the reference he made; "Pleased to hear that Charlie Cartwright got out, some chaps here from his camp who weren't so lucky."
     
  15. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    It would be great if you could find out Fred, though it isn't my main line of research I do come across escapees fairly regularly, and its always great to match stories up.
    Thats neat about those letters, guessing they were asking for financial assistance?
    I am guessing that reference is in regard to fellows POWs possibly being shot in the process of escaping, or as punishment for escaping. Unfortunately I don't have a list of NZ POWs in German camps, so couldn't tell you which camp Charlie Cartwright was in when he escaped, however Brian would be the man who could possibly assist you with that.
     
  16. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    I am guessing that reference is in regard to fellows POWs possibly being shot in the process of escaping, or as punishment for escaping.
    So far as I am aware, no Allied POWs were shot in Italy as punishment for escaping. I don't know of any instances of even POW members of partisan bands being shot on capture. They were sent to POW camps in Germany.

    Mr George Evans gives a good account of his and other POWs' time with a partisan band here BBC - WW2 People's War - A British PoW becomes a Partisan, 1943-1945
     
  17. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I am of that understanding too Peter, that no Allied POWs were shot as punishment for escaping in Italy. However I have inkling that there were some (not sure how many) who were executed after being captured with the Partisans. Now I think some executions are attributable to Fascist squads in the North, but not sure on the Germans.
    Mind you, I couldn't give you a source the above sounds familar but i couldn't say where from though lol.

    Considering the date if the letter it is probably safe to assume that the camp being talked about is in Germany?
     
  18. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    I am of that understanding too Peter, that no Allied POWs were shot as punishment for escaping in Italy. However I have inkling that there were some (not sure how many) who were executed after being captured with the Partisans. Now I think some executions are attributable to Fascist squads in the North, but not sure on the Germans.

    The Germans executed Partisans without mercy, usually after prolonged and sadistic torture, and often in public. They only ceased to execute Partisans on the spot when the Partisans began to capture Germans and exchanges were arranged. Allied soldiers were a different matter and I know of one instance on Lake Magggiore at Intra where a South African soldier who had fought with the Partisans was identified at the last minute and hauled out of a group about to be executed. I gave details of this above.

    The Germans observed the Geneva Convention with regard to Allied soldiers, expecting of course similar treatment for their own personnel, but they regarded Italian partisans as traitors and 'bandits' and all were under sentence of death; even assisting a Partisan was a capital offence.
     
  19. Colin R

    Colin R Junior Member

    My father, Leslie John Rhodes was also in the 19th battalion, a bren gunner, and he too was captured at Ruweisat Ridge on the same day. Refer to my 2 threads. He was ended up at PG57 Gruppignano, Italy, then work camp 107 at Torviscosa, Italy, then upon Italy's capitulation was moved to Stalags 18A, B, C in Austria, and a work camp in Schladming, Austria. He escaped 4 times but was recaptured each time.
    To help with your research, I suggest you get as copy of "Fighting with the Enemy" by Susan Jacobs, a New Zealander living in Auckland, who has lived in Italy and speaks Italian. I bought the book at Borders, although you will probably get it from a library. You will find a lot of your answers in her book. My email is glencol@xtra.co.nz
    Regards,
    Colin R
     
  20. Colin R

    Colin R Junior Member

    Further to my above posting, I suggest you read "Hitler's Digger Slaves" by Alex Barnett, an Australian, about PG57 and the brutal regime there. We visited the above mentioned places in Italy and Austria in 2007, finding all the camp locations - a great experience.
    I note my email address should read, as you probably know, Glencol@xtra.co.nz
     

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