British/Commonwealth POW's and the Italian armistice

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by andy007, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Hi All,
    I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me. Next year I will (hopefully) be studying for my honours degree in History at Victoria University in Wellington, New Zealand. At this point for my 10,000 word research essay I am looking at comparing the experiences of New Zealand and other British/Commonwealth POWs (being held in Italy) and whether there was a difference or not during and after the signing of the Italian armistice.

    What I am looking for is information whether online or published that would be helpful with this endeavour. I have so far read through the relevant of the NZ Official War histories. But other than that I am at a bit of a loss when it comes to primary sources. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated too.

    Thanks,
    Andy:)

    P.S Also please tell me if you think this topic is a non-starter.
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'm guessing you've already checked the NZETC Andy, but just in case, this is their PoW section:
    Prisoners of War | NZETC

    Looks like it's largely still awaiting digitisation, but the Liberation stuff's been done so that may help. It has a fair bit on Kiwis held in Italy.
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  4. Andy

    This book Go Right, Young Man: Amazon.co.uk: Eric G.F. Bull, Bruce Webb, Charles Miles: Books which is also available to order from Blackwells Go Right, Young Man - Blackwell Bookshop Online gives an excellent account of life in Italian Camp PG54 Fara Sabina from June 1942 until the armistice and then after escape from the camp, just after the armistice, living with and being looked after by local villagers until being liberated by the Allies in June 1944. Another interesting read about life in Italy at this time well worth a read is War in Val D'Orcia: An Italian War Diary, 1943-1944: Amazon.co.uk: Iris Origo, Denis Mack Smith: Books

    There are also some interesting online diairies of other POW's at camp PG54 at:
    BBC - WW2 People's War - Dad's War Diary from Diary 2 onwards
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/flash/2005-03/16499347.swf and Sleepy Hollow - LS Ongley - Biography both from a South African perspective.

    and finally I am in contact with an Ex-POW from the Camp BBC - WW2 People's War - John Mallen escaped POW in Italy whom if we could sort out the logistics would probably be more than happy to talk to you about his experinces.

    Hope these are of some use to you. My Grandfather was held by the Italians until the armistice at PG 54 when he escaped, but was recaptured by the Germans a few weeks later, hence my interest.

    Chris
     
  5. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Awesome stuff guys, thank you very much.
    Von Poop NZETC was my first port of call! hehe the amount of information that NZETC has is amazing.
    That book is duly noted thanks Owen.

    Thanks for the links/books there Chris, great stuff. At this stage I am not really sure what direction my essay will be going. What I really need to do is get an end point or goal that I want the research to achieve. If I have sources to go over that should be easier.
    I would have to check with my supervisior on the guidelines for conducting interviews, but if possible I would love to be able to talk Mr Mallen.
    My interest is due to my Great Uncle (A Padre) being held in PG 82 then being transferred to a German camp (not sure on the dates though).
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Andy, you realise now you've started it here... we'd probably quite like to eventually see the finished article ;).
     
  7. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Haha I was thinking the exact same thing last night as I was typing the initial post....."I bet the guys will probably want to see this once its done!"
     
  8. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Thought I better give everyone an update on where this is going. I have decided to look at the 'thought processes' of NZ PoWs. By that I mean things such as why they chose to take the routes they did once escaped and Whether or not they were 'prepared' for escape.

    As part of looking at this I was wondering if there would be Escape and Evasion reports about NZers held at Kew? or would they be held here in NZ? I ask this as I have searched our National Archives website without any success.
     
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    The answer is simple. Yes there are Reports at Kew.

    As the New Zealand P.O.W. were in a very small minority of the total, and the fact that there are a couple of series of reports that no one knows the whereabouts of there will be only a limited No.
    Not sure if these are duplicated at Army Base Personnel Records.

    I have all Escapers Reports available listed, both those who escaped through the Lines and those who got into Switzerland.

    Brian
     
  10. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Andy,

    I have a list of all New Zealand POW's held in Italian Camps. If you want them I can probably send you the files over by email. It may need 2 or 3 messages but it is managable. PM me if you are interested.

    Bamboo.
     
  11. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    The only Published lists of P.O.W. of any Nationality that have been Printed in total are those for Germany 1945. These three Publications are still available from Savannah Publications.
    These are the lists available from Ancestry,but as you are looking for Escapers Italy would not be of interest unless you also want to check for Liberation Reports in WO344.

    I have Italy 1943 and Germany 1944 which have never been published.

    Brian
     
  12. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Brian and Bamboo, thank you both very much for your replies. The reason I ask about the E&E reports is that I am hopefully going to be looking at Why POWs chose to take the actions they did and how prepared they were for escape, I was hoping that the reports may contain some of this information.
    What sort of information would a liberation report contain Brian?

    Bamboo, I will take you up on that offer thanks, though the lists maybe incomplete It will at least give me an idea of who was there. What information does the lists contain? where they were held etc? or is it just names?
     
  13. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Andy,

    I have name, rank, number, unit, camp number and a list of camp names.

    PM me and we will work out how to send them over.

    Cheers.

    Bamboo.
     
  14. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Andy,
    there was little or no time for the other Ranks to prepare to Escape Post italian Capitulation as they were unaware of the Armistace until it happened. In a few Camps they were ordered by the S.B.O. to wait until the Camps were overun by the Allies. The more sensible S.B.Os allowed any Escape attempts to be made and even joined in.
    There were members of the S.A.S.,amongst others dropped in to help Escapers down "Ratlines"towards the Allies. Those in the more Northerly Camps usually chose to get through the Mountains to Switzerland.

    There is only one way to read the Reports as they are not online and that is to sit down at a Desk with the Files.
    No amount of lists and Camp Nos. will tell you what you want to know.

    There are a few Reports in the Defence Library in Wellington that I have donated over the years but these are minimal.

    There is only one place which lists ALL the Escapers by Name and Report No.; that is in my Records. Kew are not able to provide this service.

    Brian
     
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  15. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Thank you for that Brian, I realise that reading the reports first hand is the way to do it but unfortunatley I am unable to do that being in NZ. How ever minimal I would like to view the reports at the Defence Force Library in Wellington, are they copies from Kew?

    As a matter of curiosity I was wondering if you had read this book? Prisoners of War in Italy, WWII Mass Escape, PG 49 Fontanellato, Military History From the blurb it could prove to be useful. Edited to add: a couple of his other books look promising too.

    I really do appreciate your help Brian, Its pointing me in the right direction!
     
  16. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi Andy very little time at present will send another message tomorrow,but you should read Arch Scott"Dark of the Moon.

    Brian
     
  17. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Thanks mate I will add that one to my list.
     
  18. eNZedFred

    eNZedFred Junior Member

    Hi there Andy,
    My Dad was 'on the loose' as he put it, for four months. He had been in a work camp at Padua. In 1997 I found the village, and possibly the house that he lived in. To me it looked like the only plan was to head for the hills. They went across the plains and into the sparse hills.
    Cheers, Fred.
     
  19. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Hi Fred, Thanks for the interesting insight. Welcome to site, its a great place to be :) What unit was your father in? Have you got much info on camps he was in?

    Bit of info on my thesis for those interested, its coming along fairly well. It is focussing on themes of Food, Religion or home and observations of Italy and Italians while men were in camps. I have the food chapter 1st draft done.
     
  20. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the Forum Fred;

    Andy Going through some work I did a few years ago on Members of 2. N.Z.E.F. who Escaped Post Armistace.
    I find that there are 93 Reports made by those who Escaped into Switzerland.

    There were just 2 who made it through the Lines.
    Pte R C R Hunt 12926 20th Btn and Pte R F Russell 12269 24th Btn.
    Both walked out of PG107 on the 9/9/43
     

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