Discussion in 'Poland' started by Polish_Street_Soldier, Jun 26, 2004.

  1. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    Well, thanks Neil. :eek:

    And, referring to No.9 "arguments": maybe you should stick at your italian campaign studies and not bother studying enything else? :angry2:

    By the way, I'm really glad that you didn't start the III World War in the name of our friendship. ;)
  2. Rebel

    Rebel Junior Member

    Originally posted by No.9@Aug 27 2004, 06:59 AM

    And, the remarkable Warsaw uprising? Anything up to a quarter of a million Poles killed and a capital city destroyed for an alleged 15’000 German casualties and no change to the war - yes, that is remarkable I suppose.

    [post=27699]Quoted post[/post]
    Yea, I agree with you, I should have not fought against my oppressors, just let them do whatever to me...
  3. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Thank you Neil, would you not say general popular history tends to pigeonhole and stereotype and offer convenient thumbnails of events?

    History is surely the ‘never ending story’, not so much because the future is to be written, but because new factors about the past continue to emerge and be considered. You can dip into any part of W.W.II and view a ‘slice’, but if you consider cause and effect you find yourself going further and further back.

    I did not state Poland did not exist prior to Versailles, rather that much of it’s previous last sizeable state was divided and governed by other states for something like 120 years prior to Versailles. Hence it was outside of anyone’s living memory and actual experience. Post W.W.I Poland made much of the rights of sovereign states and self determination. However, there is no evidence it respected these values when voiced by its neighbours? A referendum on government was held in Upper Silesia and the majority clearly voted to be part of Germany. Poland wouldn’t accept this and threatened to wage war on Germany? It’s like going up to Lennox Lewis when he’s in hospital with broken arms and legs and threatening to punch him out. The League of Nations tried to mediate but couldn’t get Poland to agree to anything less than a partition of the area with Germany. Poland still kicked-up until Germany was forced to cede its part to Poland in 1922. And yet, when the people of Vilna in Lithuania voted to be part of Poland in 1922, Poland felt that justified them taking the lot despite protests from Lithuania.

    Poland may wish to be thought of as the meek and humble innocent party, but it’s hard to find evidence of actions to foster reconciliation and promote peaceful co-existence with its neighbours. After W.W.I, Poland was poorly off as most of Europe was. However, Poland was effectively a ‘new kid on the block’, and a poor one at that, and not the ‘return of the king’ with his conquering army as it appears to have assumed. It could beat-up guys smaller than itself, but was only able to intimidate its temporarily devastated big neighbours (Germany and Russia) by virtue of its perceived big French brother, who had been a prime devastator. Again, it demonstrated it had no great allegiance to France, and, would happily lay in anyone’s bed if it would further its own interests - like other countries.

    1925 Post the Locarno Conference, France was unhappy with the lack of concern and support for French concerns over an emergent Germany. France now sets-up new separate mutual assistance treaties with Poland and Czechoslovakia in the event of a German attack on any of the signatories. The French developed an extensive alliance system with Poland and the ‘Little Entente’ powers and began construction of the Maginot Line.

    1933 Poland and Germany sign an agreement over Danzig, but, in 1934 Poland attempted to balance its alliance with France with German friendship in an attempt to avoid involvement in foreign quarrels. This agreement represented the first breach in the French alliance system in Eastern Europe and the Polish government became the first friendly power to reach an understanding with the new nazi government in Germany.

    1935 and Germany announces plans to rearm. France sought to bring Poland, Germany, and Russia into an eastern pact which would serve to maintain some stability, but, both the Germany and Poland (now a virtual dictatorship), avoided this plan.

    1936 and Germany marches into the Rhineland. France (and her Allies) do nothing, and Poland sees her ‘big brother’ as, militarily, a waste of time. If France won’t act on her doorstep, why would or could she act to help Poland?

    1936 and Mussolini moves troops to the Austrian border and prevents the German invasion of Austria and brings about a treaty between the two. Nothing to do with Poland, but not many remember this so I just thought I’d throw it in.

    1937 Poland, and peasant strikes spread across the country to which the government responds with bloodshed.

    1938 As most of Europe was preoccupied with the German absorption of Austria, the Polish government issued a series of demands from the Lithuanians. Faced with the threat of war, the Lithuanian government immediately agreed to all of the Polish demands, including recognition of the status quo in eastern Europe. The Lithuanian capitulation prevented the crisis from escalating.

    1938 Post Munich and the Polish army occupied Teschen, and Poland gained 400 square miles of territory and 240,000 new citizens, well under half were actually Polish.

    1938 The Czechoslovak government provided Ruthenian with full autonomy and the region was renamed Carpatho-Ukraine. This region took on an important new role as the base for Ukrainian nationalist agitation, with the apparent support of the German government. The Polish government attempted to divide the new region between Poland, Hungary, and Romania, but the German government frustrated all attempts at annexation.

    1938 As a result of the failure of the Hungarian and Czecho-Slovak governments to reach an agreement on the future of Slovakia, the German and Italian governments intervened and issued a joint decision. Hungary received a broad strip of Czecho-Slovak territory from southern Slovakia and Ruthenia, which included one million people and 5,000 square miles of land. The Germans and Italians rejected a Hungarian demand for a common frontier with Poland, a claim supported by the Polish government. As a result of dismemberment, Czecho-Slovakia lost a total of five million inhabitants and 16,000 square miles of territory to Germany, Poland, and Hungary.

    Regarding the London Victory Parade, we probably have different versions of this, but, whatever it is fact that Poland was invited!


    Attached Files:

  4. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I think that there was Polish naivety in expecting the Red Army to liberate Warsaw before the defeat of the uprising and also in expecting that the Home Army would be treated as comrades in arms.

    In fact, AK officers were savagely persecuted, as were many of the rank and file if they did not immediately join Bering's army. Show trials and executions of former AK officers went on into the 1950s.

    Attached Files:

  5. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    No. 9,
    Poland acted within her interests just as any country would. You've really done your research but remarkably with the exception of the Victory Parade you seem to have drifted from your original'bunk' statement. An excellent way to ignore your own inaccuracies by repeating Poland's diplomatic record between the war and ignoring the original topic which is how was Poland betrayed?
    The answer is: Poland supported her Allies and continued to fight on after the fall of Poland and in return she earned herself 45 years of Soviet occupation.
    In terms of Upper Silesia the uprisings came about from the Entente allowing Germans to be trained into Silesia in order to vote in the referendum hence the Uprisings. Also please keep in mind the Poles were mostly locals while the Entente allowed Geramny to use the Reichswar to suppress the Polish population.
    As I stated earlier I think the Polish Lithuanian conflict was a case of Poland being in the wrong. Check your facts as Poland did not occupy 'the lot' in 1922 they occupied Central Lithuania and Vilno I can't stress enough the 'vote' to me, was a grave injustice.
    What about Polish efforts to drive the Red Army out of Latvia? After the defeat of the Red Army Poland made no territorial demands on Latvia, this seems to have been missed in your extensive research.
    Please keep in mind that the territory that Russia, Austria and Germany gained from the partitioned Poland was itself taken from 'Lennox Lewis in a hospital bed' when Poland was partitioned in the first place.
    The 1934 treaty between Poland & Germany took into account Poland's treaty with France as well as Romania and did not supercede the agreement with France. Disputes would go to mediation and the Poles could easily see that with the Nazies in power there were going to be problems.
    1935 The Poles remebered the Polish-Soviet War and were incredibly suspicious of the Soviet Union to the point where they refused to co-operate with the Soviets in Summer 1939 when war was imminent. Stubborn, yes, no argument there.
    1938 Poland's prior actions against Lithuania caused the Lithuanians to cease all commerce with the Poles. No trade, diplomacy no nothing! The Polish demands of 1938 were that Lithuania open trade and diplomatic relations with Poland. No territorial demands simply open relations.
    The bitterness between Poland and Czechoslovakia stemmed from the seizure or Teschen by Czechoslovakia should the Poles have taken the high road, naturally.
    Also please No 9 I have kept this at an adult level please do not denigrate my argument by referring to them as 'pigeonholing' nor thumbnailing. You began this by making some simply untrue statements about Poland's participation in WW II you now try to support these claims by pointing out Poland was no Angel between 1918-1939 something no one here was claiming. I have conceded valid points and I have not cherrypicked arguments nor facts to support my claims.
    Take care,
    Neil B)
  6. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    No 9,
    Found my copy of Ander's "An Army in Exile" it turns out the British government invited 25 Polish Airmen to the parade but would not allow members of the Army or Navy participate. The 25 Airmen declined to march. Winston Churchill delivered a speech to the House of Commons on June 5 bemoaning the refusal to allow the Polish Army & Navy to participate.
    Yet another 'bunk' debunked.
    Take care,
    Neil :)
  7. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Yet another 'bunk' debunked

    Really, or is it a case of selective history? I don’t have a copy of Ander’s book so I can’t say if he offers any reason behind this or if you’ve omitted it? However, I do have a copy of Churchill’s speech of 5th June 1946 which is generally termed the Iron Curtain speech as this is pegged as the point when the termed passed into general parlance - in Britain anyway.

    The speech is not about Poland it’s about the presence of the Soviets in central Europe and the fact that they are doing whatever they want to do and Britain is powerless to stop them and America (who is not) has quite rightly ‘done more than their bit’ in Europe and is not about to start another war.

    The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - as what it decided it comprised - took part in the parade, not its separate members. The Soviets deemed Poland as part of that body. It doesn’t matter a hoot whether they were right or wrong, that was their decision. Britain invited and expected Poland to march in the parade as Poland, but the Soviets did not. As Churchill points out in his speech, the Soviets are even ‘Russifying’ the parts of Germany it occupies.

    Should Britain have ticked off Stalin by letting the Poles march as Poland which was tantamount to stating they acknowledged an independent Poland and snubbed the Soviets? Stalin deemed parts of Poland as really Russian anyway and the rest part of the USSR - and no one was about to argue to the point of fighting over it - including the USA.

    I’m guessing, but probably Anders or whoever received a polite note advising with regret the Poles would not be able to march in the parade. I further do not suppose for a moment he was told the reason was that it would tick off Stalin, but, if he had half a brain he may well have worked this out for himself or made a few discreet inquiries. Alternately he may have been well aware of the situation but chose to take the line of slagging off Britain for effectively not putting its head on the block for the sake of dear Poland.

    What Churchill actually said: ”Poland is denied all free expression of her national will. Her worst appetites of expansion are encouraged. At the same time, she is held in strict control by a Soviet-dominated government who do not dare have a free election under the observa-tion of representatives of the three or four Great Powers. The fate of Poland seems to be an unending tragedy, and we, who went to war, all ill-prepared, on her behalf, watch with sorrow the strange outcome of our endeavors. I deeply regret that none of the Polish troops — and I must say this — who fought with us on a score of battle-fields, who poured out their blood in the common cause, are to be allowed to march in the Victory Parade. They will be in our thoughts on that day.”

  8. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    No 9 My Friend,
    Please anyone reading this thread can see which one of us is practicing selective history.
    you have, again, changed your argument the speech Anders alludes to is the same you quote. Poland was NEVER considered a part of the Soviet Union the Soviets had a Corps which fought with the Soviet forces, it wore distinctive polish insignia the Soviets went through extensive legal fictions to 'legitimize' the people's Republic.
    The fact remains the Polish Army & NAvy were not invited to the Victory Parade and the Polish Airmen invited refused to march because of it. Please the men of the Polish Navy and the II Corps fought under British, not Soviet command. Once agian you claimed originally the claim they were excluded was bunk, now that it turns out that's not completely true you rush to discuss the morality of Britain's decision.
    Please I tire of this, re-read your posts and I think you'll see you've done verylittle to support your initial claims.
    I wish you a wonderful weekend buddy I honestly think you've got an axe to grind.
    Take care & God Bless,
    Neil :)
  9. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Poland was not on the United Nations list as a Soviet Republic, but, it was Soviet run, controlled and dominated - so? It was marked ‘red’ on Iron Curtain maps. Was there some pretence Poland was independent and democratic? I don’t wish to appear facetious but all that can be said is that people could choose what they wanted as long as they chose as they were told, and in the vast majority of cases if not all cases, any choice available was only as provided on sanctioned by the ‘Party’.
    “In the European countries where Soviet influence was paramount during and after World War II — Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, and East Germany — political structures were reorganised in stages. Local Communists first co-operated in coalition governments in which they controlled the ministries directing the police, the army, and the economy. This was followed, beginning in 1945, by the institution of "people's democracies," Soviet-type regimes under Communist control domestically and subservient to the USSR in foreign policy. Opposing political factions were isolated and then destroyed, large land holdings were expropriated, and (with the exception of Poland) farms were collectivised; virtually all industry was nationalised. Czechoslovakia, the only democracy in Eastern Europe between the two world wars, was the last to come under Communist control in February 1948, through subversion of a coalition government. That same year, Yugoslavia, having acquired a Communist regime led by Marshal Josip Broz Tito, resisted Soviet efforts to dictate to it and was expelled from Cominform.”

    Re the Parade, what I said was the usual chestnut is; ”the Poles weren’t allow to march in the London Victory Parade” and now even you have stated that they were - albeit the airmen, who were Polish - yes? Very, very typically though, this is as much of the statement that ever gets sited, which goes in tandem with slagging off Britain and/or slagging Britain together with cries of Poland being betrayed - 1939, the Warsaw uprising, Tehran, Yalta, 1945 etc, take your pick. I have yet to see a Pole point a finger at the Soviets or follow their accusation with, ”Of course, it was quite understandable and anyone would have done the same in the circumstances”.

    And, the original question, and what a tired old question it is, ‘was Poland betrayed?’. If the situation is fully and reasonably considered, at worst, Poland was an unfortunate victim of circumstance and inevitability. The Soviets were going to invade Poland come what may! IF, Britain and France had magically spirited up forces overnight and piled into western Germany, and, if they were seen to be beating the Germans (which they couldn’t do with preparation in earnest in 1940 so how they were going to do this in 1939........), the Soviets would have invaded Poland anyway and decided later whose side they were on as best suited them.

    There’s a good essay, I think, which gives a fair overview at:
    Not lengthy paragraphs about Poland as Poland was not a great factor - except to the Poles, understandably.

    What always puzzles me is what Poles seek to achieve by continuously harping on with the same old accusations?

  10. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Originally posted by No.9@Aug 27 2004, 06:59 AM
    Poland betrayed?????? Britain went to war against Germany to oppose Nazi expansionism, not out of any desire to ‘save’ Poland. If Hitler’s first move was against Poland instead of Austria and Czechoslovakia, Poland would just have been the country on the agenda at Munich!

    Why should Britain have any special regard for Poland? What did Poland ever do for Britain???

    Poland hardly existed before Versailles, and then it clambered to seize all the territory it could, including territory predominantly peopled by other ethnics. It then spent the years between the wars throwing its weight around, or rather, throwing the weight around of its allies - Britain and France. “If you don’t do what I say I’ll tell my big brother” attitude - made lots of friends with their neighbours that way. And then, when their neighbour Czechoslovakia was invaded by Germany, not only did they do nothing to assist, they jumped it and took Czech territory for themselves. And, when Germany invaded their other neighbours and good friends (?) Lithuania in the north shut the border on them. Had they been upsetting Lithuania as well? And, despite the fact that Hitler and Stalin had no time for each other, to say the least, they put that aside to join in invading Poland, because they both like Poland so much? And, the odd pockets of Polish guerrillas were so disunited they ranged from ardent Communist Soviets to Neo fascists, fought each other and some actually persecuted Polish Jews!!!

    60 Years on we are plagued by incessant revisionism of Poland’s contribution to the war? Gems like, ‘if not for Poland Enigma would never have been cracked’, and, ‘the Poles weren’t allow to march in the London Victory Parade’, and, ‘the impoverished post-war Polish people had to pay for the Polish War Memorial in England, and, ‘only the Poles could have taken Cassino’. All utter BUNK!

    And, the remarkable Warsaw uprising? Anything up to a quarter of a million Poles killed and a capital city destroyed for an alleged 15’000 German casualties and no change to the war - yes, that is remarkable I suppose.

    [post=27699]Quoted post[/post]

    Honestly No. 9 as long as statements like yours above appear on World War II discussion Forums the Poles are going to Harp On their efforts to defeat fascism.
    God Bless and Take Care,
  11. If you go to Bletchley Park where the enigma code breakers worked you will see that they and many professional historians also agree that the wotk done here was more valuable than at any other area of the war effort. they beleive that not only did they shorten the war they may well have saved Britian from defeat. this came about because they obtained an enigma machine from the poles and the start to crack it. Whilst many British and other nationalities worked on it without this start!!!!!!!!

    So in answer to your statement 'utter bunk' this is not true.

    Yes Cassino could have been taken by any troops, Warsaw was a waste but only because Stalin sat back and let the Germans destroy the Home army, which saved him a job.

    Didnt the poles contribute to the air war in 1940?
    Didnt they contribute at Tobruk and in Italy and North West Europe.

    They did not win the war but they played a significant part, in my opinion more so than the French.

  12. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    this came about because they obtained an enigma machine from the poles and the start to crack it

    Sorry, interesting but no cigar :( - and you don’t need to go to Bletchley.

    Germany enhanced its encryption, which Poland could not break, before the war started - e.g. they were unable to decipher the announcement and details about their own invasion. Britain, France and Poland were all working on cracking German codes before W.W.II. In 1931 German Hans-Thilo Schmidt passed Enigma operating instructions and 4 diagrams to French Intelligence. They later passed these to Poland on the understanding that they should pass back any results they achieved with them. They never did. The Poles bought several commercial Enigma machines but got nowhere with the military version until the French gave them code sheets supplied by their German.

    Poland went on to break the simple code used at the time and make copies of the military machines when they made quick plans of the machine destined for the German embassy in Warsaw which they intercepted and kept till the next day. However, before the invasion of Poland the Germans increased the complexity of Enigma which the Poles couldn’t break. Then, just before the invasion, they met with the British and French cryptographers and showed them for the first time what they had so far.

    In August they sent 2 mock-ups to France, and Britain’s friend Gustav Bertrand (French Intelligence) and Tom Greene (British SIS) brought one over to London. The Poles themselves went to Bucharest where the British Embassy told them to clear off. They went to the French who got them to France and their code-breaker section ‘Bruno’. There the French broke the German Army key for 28 October from the sheets the British provided them. Thereafter Britain and France worked ever closer on the code till the fall of France where all work was transferred to and carried on at Bletchley. There in 1940 the British cracked the Luftwaffe code and in the spring of 1941 the Naval code. The Army code was broken in 1942.

    Also, Betrand records French Intelligence were approached in the summer of 1937 via their Embassy in Berne, Switzerland, who advised; ”German technicians have developed a coding and decoding apparatus of a completely new type”, this was the Enigma the military was using. With plans. Manuals and code sheets provided, the French built Enigmas using precision tooling at a Franco-American cash register factory outside Paris. ”The French had the capacity to read the German’s most secret ciphers – an intelligence coup of major importance. But they could do so only as long as ‘Source D’ [their German informant] continued to supply the keying changes [for the daily codes]”

    In their book Codebreakers: The inside story of Bletchley Park by Prof. F.H. Hinsley (Cambridge University and author of the 4 volumes history of British Intelligent in W.W.II), and Alan Stripp (Director of Cambridge University British Secret Services Studies), Stuart Milner-Barry (of Hut 6, Bletchley) states (P.92) ”When war broke out , however, the Germans made a major change in the machine [Enigma] which put the Poles out of business; And also; ”It was always a mystery to me the Polish contingent was not incorporated at Bletchley during the war……………..I can only assume there were security doubts.”

    The British too had an informant, a Jew named Richard Lewinski, who had been a mathematician and engineer at the Enigma factory in Germany before being expelled for being Jewish. He approached MI6 (SIS) in June of 1938 and was taken on board for £10’000, a British passport and a flat in Paris, where he built a working facsimile of the military Enigma.

    Wynn-Williams in Britain had built a machine which performed a similar function to the Polish ‘bomba’, ”but at far greater speeds – speeds sufficient to break into the more advanced Enigma procedures that had defeated the Poles.”
    (p.206. ‘C’-The secret life of Sir Stewart Menzies – Anthony Cave-Brown)

    ”The British realised, unlike the Poles, they could not rely solely upon painstaking and time-consuming mathematical decryption’s of Enigma transmissions……………..nor, unlike the French, could they rely upon the services of a traitor to provide the keying schedules.”

    Also see Public Records Office
    Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) HW 25/12 an HW 25/15

    Warsaw was a waste but only because Stalin sat back and let the Germans destroy the Home army

    The ‘Home Army’, or the part which acted in Warsaw, is estimated at something like 35’000 people, of which, only 10% to 14% had a weapon that went bang! i.e. 3 to 4 thousand armed people with no armour, heavy weapons or quantitative supply. If the German response was measured and cautious, so drawing out the putting down of the uprising, perhaps it’s because they thought at any time they might find themselves facing the Soviet forces as well. Stalin never told Hitler he wouldn’t attack until the uprising was over?

    Didn’t the poles contribute to the air war in 1940?
    Didn’t they contribute at Tobruk and in Italy and North West Europe.

    And the point is??? It was a ‘World War’ after all, and, Poland was invaded by the Germans - so had a personal interest in fighting them, like almost everyone else in Europe? However, a few other people joined in who weren’t invaded by the Germans, like Canadians, Australians, Kiwis, Maoris, South Africans, East Africans, West Africans, Central Africans, Irish, Indians, Ceylonese, Brazilians, Nepalese, and, Americans?

    They did not win the war but they played a significant part, in my opinion more so than the French.

    Each to their own. :)

  13. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Please, another disingenuous posting?

    By your own admission in your last post the aided the British and French in breaking enigma. Oh and by the way the Poles were able to break the German code using the Bomba method (oh and what a coincidence that the British referred to their own later devices as Bombas) until July of 1939. Codes are constantly changed and updated to ensure their security, invariably if the Germans changed a cod or a series of wheels, there would be a lag before anyone could 're-crack' the code.
    Because of this fact the 'code sheets' provided by the French would have been essentially useless within a few months.
    I also fail to see where the British had a copy of an enigma machine before the Poles provided one.
    Shockingly now you acknowlege a Home Army I was under the impression from you original post that the Polish Underground consisted of:
    And, the odd pockets of Polish guerrillas were so disunited they ranged from ardent Communist Soviets to Neo fascists, fought each other and some actually persecuted Polish Jews!!!
    Perhaps i am misquoting you again?
    Again in regards to the Warsaw uprising the Soviets began calling on the Polish people to Rise Up as the the Red Army was approaching, the Poles did and held Warsaw, only the Red Army never showed up. The Poles were wel aware of what to expect should the Red Army liberate Poland with no contribution form the Home Army. The Warsaw Uprising was a desperate act by people who could see that they could expect little help from the West once the Red Army was in Poland. If, however, they could liberate Warsaw before the Red Army came it would give the Government in Exile something to make their case against the Soviets.
    by the way mocking the civilian casualties was a nice touch.
    Now the Polish Airmen were supposed to help England and did?
    Remarkably there is no mention of the Polish contribution in your first post to the Battle of Britain. Almost as if you're picking and choosing your points.
    So you acknowledge that Poland did aid in the cracking of Enigma, you acknowledge they did assist in the Battle of Britain, they did take Monte Cassino.
    But you have a proven (actually I proved it for you as your were basing your argument on a program for the event) that 23 Polish Airmen were invited to the victory parade it was simply the Army and Navy who were deliberately snubbed to appease the Soviets.
    Poland's reward for these contributions to Victory: 45 years of Soviet occupation.

    That's a pretty raw deal where I come from, some would even say betrayal.
    Again No 9 you're very research and intelligence gives the lie to your own arguments. I'll say it again: You have an axe to grind.
    Re-read your posts, you have changed your argument repeatedly and made every attempt to bring each point to a 'wood for the trees' question of semantics.
    You seem to take any admission of a Polish contribution as a swipe at Britain which I find confusing. Without Britain there would have been no Army in Exile, no planes for the Polish contribution in the Battle of Britain, no Monte Cassino etc. the fact that Britain aided Poland and allowed these men to come to grips with Germany is A wonderful reflection on Great Britain.
    Take Care,
    Neil :)
  14. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    If you want to call me a liar, please have the bottle to do so - and then show the counter evidence, otherwise you may run the risk of being taken for another wining Pole?

    No one has a problem with the fact that Poland contributed to the breaking of Enigma. The problem arises when they make claims tantamount to everyone else being a bunch of nunces and the small act is to be venerated as much as a second coming. If the Poles had thrown their machines in the dustbin instead of sending them to France, the British, French (and later) American cryptographers would still have achieved the ends intended. How much time, if any, was or may have been saved remains open to opinion as we only know what was as opposed to what might have been. Claims and insinuations that nothing could have been achieved or nothing for years and years is bunk and disingenuous.

    If you want to refute the authors of the books I’ve quoted then do so and please state why.

    Shockingly now you acknowlege a Home Army I was under the impression from you original post that the Polish Underground consisted of:
    And, the odd pockets of Polish guerrillas were so disunited they ranged from ardent Communist Soviets to Neo fascists, fought each other and some actually persecuted Polish Jews!!! Perhaps i am misquoting you again?

    You’re not misquoting me, you’re talking my statement and applying your own interpretation to it. The Polish Home Army (AK), or Polish Resistance Movement, was quite extensive and suffered from internal wrangling. However, the effective majority comprised people acting covertly and engaged in intelligence and sabotage in which they did well. The SOE trained and injected around 300 agents, mostly Polish, into Poland during the war. It was they who were responsible for the bulk of these actions and in training accomplices. On the other hand, the guerrillas, or Partisans, who lived and operated in the field were, as said, were mostly uncoordinated and fragmented and resisted attempts to establish cohesive order and control. They were politically divided and did squander meagre resources (only about 10% were armed) fighting among themselves. The Communist Partisans generally accepted Polish Jews while others generally rejected and/or persecuted them which was found to be a similar practice among the populous. Homesteads and villages were often as terrified of the ‘Partisans’ as they were of the Germans as their meagre homes were raided equally brutally by either. Militarily their accomplishments were of minor significance, especially when compared to the achievements of the major Partisan forces operating in Russia, Yugoslavia and Italy.

    Re the Warsaw Uprising, I’m glad you acknowledge you have a grievance over this with the Russians, not the British.

    When have I mentioned the Battle of Britain????? You want to mention it? - OK. 2421 British pilots and 141 Polish, and 303 Polish Squadron were attributed with the highest number of kills. Top Gun for any month was Josef Frantisek of 303, with 17 kills and 1 maybe. There we are, happy with the popular thumbnail? Unfortunately there are ‘buts’ even to these statements! Josef Frantisek flew with the 303 Polish, but, he was a Czech, and was not alone, and, (something which hardly ever gets mentioned), who was responsible for the most incidents of ‘blue-on-blue’ (friendly fire) - hint, there were only 7 American pilots in the BoB so you can’t pin it on them.

    Now let’s talk about "Ginger" Lacey of 501 Biggin Hill!

    Poland's reward for these contributions to Victory: 45 years of Soviet occupation. That's a pretty raw deal where I come from, some would even say betrayal.

    I dare say where you come from, it is. From where I come it’s called tough! But that’s something that needs to be addressed to the Soviets. Britain and France’s threats of war with Germany were not about Poland for Poland’s sake, but directed against Germany on the premise of ‘three strikes and your out’. Austria, Czechoslovakia and then Poland - Poland was the third strike. If Poland chose to ignore the rest of the world and world developments, and think of itself as the centre of the universe, that’s up to them - irrelevant to the rest of the world however.

    Three major problems of Poland: 1. It thought/thinks far too much of itself, 2. it spent far too much short-sighted effort fostering that delusion between the wars and alienating its neighbours, and 3. they had some weird idea they were ‘one of us’.

    I'll say it again: You have an axe to grind.

    In terms of acknowledging the part Poland played in W.W.II, none at all. In putting up with truck loads of bovine excreta that keeps emerging as egoistic attempts to grossly exaggerate the case, plenty.

  15. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    No 9,
    Finally a relatively reasonable post!
    I would not call you a liar but I do say (and have said a number of times here) you have cherrypicked your arguments. I think the problem here is you have been arguing not with me or anyone else here on this forum but you have been trying to go after people who make inaccurate statements or overblow Poland's contribution, that's fine. The problem is you've tried to do this by belittling Poland's contribution and that's where your posts lose credibility.
    Let's take it from No.1 I don't know a country on earth that this charge can not be leveled, with some justification, on.
    No. 2: Poland had excellent relations with Romania, Hungary and Latvia terrible relations with Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, less than stellar relations with Germany. So what? Should I judge Great Britain by it's problems with Ireland?
    No. 2
    In terms of 'they had some weird idea they were one of us’.allow me to quote King George VI:
    "It will ever be to Poland's honour that she resisted, alone, the overwhelming forces of the German agressor. For over five tragic years the British and Polish nations have fought together against our brutal foe, years of terrible suffering for the people of Poland, borne with a courage and endurance which has won my heartfelt admiration and sympathy. The gallant Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen have fought beside our forces in many parts of the world and everywhere have won high regard. In particular, we in this country remember with gratitude the part played by Polish airmen in the Battle of Britain, which all the world recognizes as a decisive moment in the war.
    It is my earnest hope that Poland may, in the tasks of peace and international cooperation which now confront the Allied Nations, achieve the reward of all her courage and sacrifice."

    Winston Churchill in a letter to Gen. Anders:

    "Now that you have resigned your position as Acting Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Armed Forces, I should like to tell you with what admiration I have followed the military successes of the troops under your command in Italy and North-West Europe as well as the achievements of the Polish Navy and Air Force. They have mad a fine contribution to the triumph of Allied arms, and we in this country shall not lightly forget the part they played in the defeat of Germany."
    Seems that both King George and Churchill considered the Poles 'one of us'.
    Take care & God Bless,
  16. Happy Hussar

    Happy Hussar Junior Member

    No.9 you don't like Poles do you ?
    Your country is on list for extermination. Nazis and USSR have plan to kill all of your nationality. German soldiers go along a street in Warsaw. Then they start to catch evrybody around. No reason, no threat. Most of those people won't survive. Some will began a new life as slaves in Germany. Poles watch at horrors in ghetto. This is truth. You don't know how those people felt then. We all don't know.
    So please stop this bullshit. About Warsaw uprising, about Enigma, about Victory march. Poles are tired. And they were betrayed. Simple. End of topic. And yes we Poles have our sins. So what? So what we took this small part of Czechoslowacja.
    Your a saint?
  17. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Well I fail to see how I can be ‘cherry picking’ by commenting on the usual chestnuts? The original question was what is thought of ‘Poland’s betrayal’, and yes, I mentioned the other points that experience dictates usually emerge. Rather than wait for them to surface, again, I cut straight to the chase.

    Regarding claims of ‘belittling Poland’, that was expected. Very civilly expressed on this occasion as it usually emerges as an accusation of racism - but the day ain’t over yet. I have no interest in belittling Poland, just to put it and its contributions in proper perspective, especially when faced with statements that Britain is a nation of traitors.

    By all means make reference between Britain and Ireland if you wish. How far back to do intend to go?

    Very nice the letters from the King and Churchill to Anders, no doubt sited by him in his book? I think the letters are apposite and to be expected. However, politically correct letters of this nature were quite common place. Do you think the Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians, etc, etc, etc, didn’t receive similar?

    As for political rhetoric.......

    Churchill in Italy visiting Mussolini before the war:
    ”If I had been an Italian, I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism. But in England we have not yet had to face his danger in the same deadly form. But that we shall succeed in grappling with Communism and choking the life out of it - of that I am absolutely sure.”

    Lord Halifax as British Deputy Prime Minister (later Foreign Secretary) addressing Adolf Hitler:
    "Herr Chancellor, on behalf of the British Government I congratulate you on crushing communism in Germany and standing as a bulwark against Russia"

  18. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Well, well, well. While I’m writing a post which makes mention of the racism card, someone enters a post and plays it!

    Hussar, I’m not even going to bother with that one. In respect to your cries of b/s, the only b/s is in the exaggerated claims referred to. The perspectives I have put forward and quoted may not agree with the popular Polish view, but they are not b/s. Any question of ‘betrayal’ lays between the Soviets and Poland. I wonder, do you post on Russian web sites and slag them off, or does the shadow of the Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa still loom?

  19. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Again No 9 another post another completely different argument.
    Please you had three problems with Poland I adressed them. You stated that the Poles were not Allies I produced two documents from the King of England and the prime Minister both of which thanked Poland for their CONTRIBUTION TO ALLIED VICTORY and yes there should also be letters to the Norwegians, Dutch, etc. because they too were members of the ALLIES!
    Get it?
    When did I ever say Britain was a nation of traitors? please read my original post on this thread on the first page.
    Please address my arguments, my friend, not the ones in your head.
    Take care & God Bless,
  20. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Neil, my post is not a different argument, we just appear to approach it from completely different points of origin exasperated by language and terminology. I never said or implied the Polish people who fought with Britain weren’t allies. However, just because countries fight against the same enemy does not make them ‘one of us’.

    On words and terminology, going back to the original topic question, I respectfully suggest that people who do not have British as their first language stop using the term ‘betrayal’ so lightly unless they mean treason. ‘Betrayal’ is not often heard or used in normal language in Britain unless associated with treason. e.g. If your mate doesn’t turn up to help you with your car as promised he’ll understand you accusing him of ‘letting you down’, but he won’t understand being told he ‘betrayed’ you. Is he guilty of something as dramatic as Judas? Of course, if that is what someone is saying about Britain then they shouldn’t be surprised at the strength of reaction.


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