Betrayal

Discussion in 'Poland' started by Polish_Street_Soldier, Jun 26, 2004.

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  1. Polish_Street_Soldier

    Polish_Street_Soldier Junior Member

    I just wanted to ask all you British and American History Buffs. How do You Feel about how Britain and America Betrayed Poland, specifically about the little to no aid that poland received from Britain, and why America and Britain gave up Poland to the Soviet Union rather than helping Poland as an allied deserved.
     

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  2. BeppoSapone

    BeppoSapone Senior Member

    Originally posted by Polish_Street_Soldier@Jun 26 2004, 02:17 PM
    I just wanted to ask all you British and American History Buffs. How do You Feel about how Britain and America Betrayed Poland, specifically about the little to no aid that poland received from Britain, and why America and Britain gave up Poland to the Soviet Union rather than helping Poland as an allied deserved.
    What other aid could Britain have given Poland. Short of fighting a World War against the Nazis, and helping clothe and arm the free Polish forces?

    Are you saying that the western allies should have fought Russia in 1945? Maybe the Germans could have helped? German POWs said that the Nazi's wanted a seperate peace with the west, so that Germany, Britain and America could fight Bolshevism.

    I don't think that the British Army of 1945 would have fought Russia, not without a lot of dissent. Remember that after WW1 British soldiers would not even volunteer to fight in Russia, and some troops sent to north Russia even mutinied.

    Another problem for you, other than that the west might have lost, is the tens or even hundreds of thousands killed, many would have been Polish civilians as much of the battleground would have been Poland!
     
  3. Polish_Street_Soldier

    Polish_Street_Soldier Junior Member

    okay, i never said that Britain should fight a war with Russia. But there is no denying that Britain and America Willingly Gace Up Poland at Conferences Like Tehran and Potsdam. And when the war first started, Britain and France are the ones that claimed they would protect Poland at all costs. And Both Countries did declare War. But there was no real aid. And though the British army might not have been to strong in 1939, the British Navy was. Yet, no ships were sent to aid Poland. France Did nothing other than a few weak and short lived offensives. The fact that Britain and America sold Poland to the Soviets, then complained when Communism spread to every East European Country is what angers me.
     
  4. I have always found it ironic that Britian went to war over Poland and then handed over the soverentity to Soviet forces in effect at the end of the War. Whilst short of starting WW3 to give Poland independnece I can not see what else could have been done.

    Without doubt Russia had fought a vast war and suffered greatly and the allies needed Russia to go on fighting to make easier the burden on their forces. I guess concessions had to be made.

    Of course the hounerable and right thing to have done would have been to unhold the soverenity of poland as they had tried to do in 1939. By 1945 there was not much honour left in the war just tiredness and weiryness.

    Unfortunately it was just another chapter in Polands fascinating history.


    regards
    Arm.
     
  5. BeppoSapone

    BeppoSapone Senior Member

    Originally posted by Polish_Street_Soldier@Jun 26 2004, 09:41 PM
    okay, i never said that Britain should fight a war with Russia. But there is no denying that Britain and America Willingly Gace Up Poland at Conferences Like Tehran and Potsdam. And when the war first started, Britain and France are the ones that claimed they would protect Poland at all costs. And Both Countries did declare War. But there was no real aid. And though the British army might not have been to strong in 1939, the British Navy was. Yet, no ships were sent to aid Poland. France Did nothing other than a few weak and short lived offensives. The fact that Britain and America sold Poland to the Soviets, then complained when Communism spread to every East European Country is what angers me.
    What aid did you expect? France had long been Allied to Poland, France had given Poland aid in the war against Russia in 1920, it was French cannon etc that helped Poland win the so-called "Miracle of the Vistula" in the spring of 1920. Britain had no such links with Poland, and so had not had 20 years to supply Poland with arms etc.

    In September 1939 Britain came into a war on behalf of Poland but had very few arms of its own, due to appeasement. Even if Britain had had spare arms maybe you can tell me how they could have got them to Poland? They couldn't fly them because long range transport planes didn't exist. Even in 1944 when the RAF hoped to supply the Home Army in the Rising, and had American Dakotas, it was not possible to fly to Warsaw if the Russians would not let the planes re-fuel in the east. Also, in 1939, Britain could not send arms by sea. A few Polish submarines and destroyers managed to escape to Britain, but it was not easy for them to get through the Baltic. How do you think cargo ships going the other way would have fared? Do you think that the Royal Navy, even if it fought its way to Gdinya (sp?) could have done anything?

    It is true that the western Allies "sold Poland to the Soviets", to use your term. Maybe you can tell us all what else they could have done? I can't speak for America, but Britain was war weary, almost bankrupt and pleased to see an end to fighting by 1945.
     
  6. Thomas McCall

    Thomas McCall Senior Member

    Brtain and America could have done little to stop the Soviets taking Poland I agree with thwe others the only thing that could have stopped the Soviets would be to start a new war.

    Russia felt that it 'deserved' Poland after the war's hardships and also to protect the Soviet Union from future attack.
     
  7. Happy Hussar

    Happy Hussar Junior Member

    When you hear about german campaing in Poland :
    "The mighty, well trained german army needed only one month to beat polish army. Thanks to the Blitzkrieg tactic."
    Then you hear that Germans had so many forces that part of mechanized units were horses.
    Conclusion 1 : How France didnt' managed to go deeper into Germany than those 40 Km while reserves in western Germany were worthless ?
    Then I hear, watching Discovery, that Poland used XIX century tactics or those from WWI.
    Then I hear that we Poles killed 700 Germans during 39 campaign.
    Then I hear that Polish gold from national reserves, evacuated throught half of Europe, supposed to be spent for war needs. But our 'great' allie, France, help us to evacuate this gold to US. But unfortunately this gold dissapers somewhere in french Africa. Oh my! How this could happen?!
    Marshal Pilsudski went to France in 1933 and said: "I dont like Hitler, we should take him down. Polish forces and french." Nothing, the french government didnt even mention about this meeting to nobody.
    Yes BeppoSapone its US that sold us to Soviets, GB didnt had to much to say.
    I could tell more things like those but this is not my point. I want to say that we Poles are rather frustrated. We were 44 years under soviet influence. Through this time we heard how people from west think about Poles. We heard those jokes and other, simply saying, bulls*** about our role in WWII. Now when we have EU and NATO it getting better. But still I dont care if it wil change. During this war we were slaved, murdered, sold. We all have right ot be like Polish Street Soldier.
     
  8. BeppoSapone

    BeppoSapone Senior Member

    Originally posted by Happy Hussar@Jun 28 2004, 03:11 PM

    Yes BeppoSapone its US that sold us to Soviets, GB didnt had to much to say.
    I could tell more things like those but this is not my point. I want to say that we Poles are rather frustrated. We were 44 years under soviet influence. Through this time we heard how people from west think about Poles. We heard those jokes and other, simply saying, bulls*** about our role in WWII. Now when we have EU and NATO it getting better. But still I dont care if it wil change. During this war we were slaved, murdered, sold. We all have right ot be like Polish Street Soldier.
    I don't know which jokes you have been hearing about the attitude of the west to Polands fight in WW2. Maybe Russian propaganda?

    All that I have heard is praise for the free Polish forces. We even still have the children and grandchildren here in England today.

    Of course you have the right to be annoyed at the way that Poland was treated by both Russia and Germany. All that I am saying is that Britain could do nothing more to help Poland.
     
  9. I think that only the Military ignorant of what happened in sept 1939 still believe all the old storeis of deliberate tatics of rushing tanks with lancers. The Polish army put up a good fight under difficult conditions but were really doomed from the start.

    As Beppo says you have every right to be agrieved at the way you were treatied and having to suffer Soviet suppression but I can say from living in Britian all my life that apart from the mis-informed info on sept 1939 the only other info on polish forces i have come across for WW2 is the heroic fighting around Cassino,Arnheim and across western Europe, coupled with the exploits of the air force in the Battle of Britian. With this goes the often written opinion that the Polish Army in Exile was badly treated when Poland was sold out.

    the above is the impression I have always been given from the history i have read over the last thirty years in connection with Polish forces in 1939-45.

    The only area that I will conceed that is badly treated is sept . i think this stems from the quickness of the campagin and some peoples attempt to justify the quick defeat that Poland suffered and that this has to be because they were militartily incompetant rather than the German army was far superior in arms and tatics and man power. This is of course a bad notion to follow but having watched many programmes on WW1 and the Somme for instance still now in the UK do I see wrongly commented info on the performance of the troops and Generals in this War. So thisd is not the only error in film circles.

    I have not heard of this info on the Gold that was lost in Africa and would be grateful of any info that could be posted regarding this as it intrigues me.

    I have long been a fan of the Polish History and its Military off spring and can say that this is by what i have read in the UK. This can only be because of the excellence of the Miliitary arm and the way that it has been portrayed in the books i have read.

    Sorry to waffle so much but I got the impression that the opinion was that in the UK and else where we think that the Poles did very little in WW2 and just wanted to put the record straight.

    regards
    Arm.
     
  10. DirtyDick

    DirtyDick Senior Member

    Had the Western Allies gone to war against Russia in 1945 over the integrity of a single nation, Poland, it is perfectly possible that that nation would have suffered even more grievously and even ceased to exist.
    On top of German and Russian occupations, there would no doubt have been more bombing or fighting on Polish soil; perhaps even leading to the US dropping an atomic bomb or two on the Soviet forces in Polish territory (rather than on USSR proper and risk retribution at a later date). The additional devastation of the German population and country - as well as the huge losses sustained by the combatants - can be imagined. Furthermore, by 1945 Britain (and France) was in no economic shape to fight such a war and their conscript soldiers would no doubt have resented having their war service extended; and would the American public have stomached fighting such a war against a nominal ally for the benefit of several European nations after having lost half-a-million men already?

    Additionally, why should the Western Allies have risked war to pursue an independent Poland when they had already fought for so long and at so much expense? The carve-up of Europe was a far from perfect solution and Poland was no doubt hoodwinked to some extent by their supposed allies, but what else could be done in the face of a totalitarian, vastly powerful Soviet regime insisting on taking vast swathes of Eastern Europe for absorption into its own sphere of influence?

    If Poland had had its independence guaranteed by both the Allies and the Soviets, would Austria, for example, have spent virtually the remainder of the 20th C. behind the Iron Curtain in place of Poland? Should the remainder of Germany have been handed over to the Russians in exchange for geographically vulnerable smaller states, leaving a united Germany and Russian forces on the French border?


    Richard
     
  11. Happy Hussar

    Happy Hussar Junior Member

    I agree that there was no sense to fight Soviets after defeating Nazis.
    A Pole that know a little more about WWII than a ordinary person is very often angry on western allies. You need to understand that this anger is growing almost all the time. How many versions about Enigma we heared. But I'm, at least me, happy that there are some people from west, like you ;] , that know some real stuff about polish history. There is still hope. I even noticed that programs at Discover Channel have more info about polish forces... but why the hell we have Latvian flag instead of Polish ???? :angry:
     
  12. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Gentlemen,
    As reprehensible as the treatment of Poland was in 1945 we must remember that the policy of any nation is to serve it's own best interests. We agree that fighting the Soviets was not a realistic option in 1945. As commendable as the contribution of the Polish Army in Exile was it pales in significance when compared with the effort of the Soviet Union in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
    Was the Soviet Union a scourge to Eastern Europe, of course. However, the primary concern of both FDR and Churchill was the well being of their nations. Not the independence of Poland. Gratitiude is a fleeting thing as I'm sure I do not have to remind Poles (when was the last time you were thanked for breaking the Siege of Vienna? :D )
    Now I do feel it is quite unfair that Western European nations that had the benefit of the Marshall plan and did not have their economies devastated to serve a bankrupt (morally and economically) overlord for 45 years, now force Eastern European nations (who in Poland's case contributed much more to victory than they did) to jump economic hurdles in order to be accepted into the EU.
    The Poles enjoy the benefit of being the wronged party and I know it's little compensation, but the truth will triumph.
    From an American may I say Dziekuje Bardzo.
    Neil
     
  13. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I do think that the British and Americans were guilty of misleading the Polish Government in London about their situation prior to the Warsaw Uprising 1 August 1944 to 2 October 1944. Had they been clearer about the position they were then taking, I am not sure that the uprising would have happened, thus preventing a huge number of casualties.

    On the other hand, I think the Poles at that time were also a bit naive about Stalin's intentions.
     
  14. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    On the other hand, I think the Poles at that time were also a bit naive about Stalin's intentions.


    I would say the Poles knew exactly what they were dealing with, if anything Roosevelt and Churchill were being naive.
    Take care,
    Neil
     
  15. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    Originally posted by Neil B@Aug 25 2004, 08:02 PM
    On the other hand, I think the Poles at that time were also a bit naive about Stalin's intentions.
    I would say the Poles knew exactly what they were dealing with, if anything Roosevelt and Churchill were being naive.
    Take care,
    Neil
    [post=27670]Quoted post[/post]

    It is hard to judge nowadays Neil, but in my opinion it was a matter of no alternative for Poland and others in the region rather than a political naivety about Soviets. We tried to negotiate with Stalin under a great pressure of Western Allies. What else could we do? Join with Axis, like Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, some Croatians, Ukrainians and Balts?

    regards
     

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  16. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Very true it it difficult to argue when the people feeding and arming you insist you negotiate!
    Take care,
    Neil
     
  17. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    I don't think anyone who reads about World War II today thinks that the Poles failed to put up a determined defense and resistance in the face of the Nazis. Their determination to continue to fight after their nation was conquered is extremely well-known.

    There was not much the Royal Navy could have done in 1939 or 1945 to relieve Poland's ordeal, or the British Army. The French, as we know, were reluctant to fight anybody. By 1945, the whole nature of the war had changed from horse-drawn cannon and biplanes to jet aircraft, armored personnel carriers, and atomic bombs.

    And despite the American monopoly on atomic weaponry in 1945, there still was very little the British or Americans could do. The Red Army had driven to the Elbe in immense numbers. Britain was bankrupt after six years of war in all theaters, and the United States had unfinished business with Japan. Nor were Americans ready to fight against an ally that had shed 20 million lives in the cause of democracy and seen much of its terrain and many of its cities blasted into rubble. Leningrad had endured 900 days of siege and starvation. The Iron Curtain had not slammed down yet.

    Poland's services and sacrifices in World War II are very well-known. The general in "A Bridge Too Far" who most comes off as insightful is the Pole, Stanislaw Sosabowski, for example.

    I think it is that betrayal of Poland in 1939-1945 that motivated Western support since 1989 for today's Polish government and the determination to integrate Poland with NATO and the European Union. We have seen the turnabout of this situation in the fact that Poland has sent troops to Iraq and loyally supported NATO. That betrayal I think also helped motivate Russia to admit its guilt over Katyn Wood.
     
  18. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Poland betrayed?????? Britain went to war against Germany to oppose Nazi expansionism, not out of any desire to ‘save’ Poland. If Hitler’s first move was against Poland instead of Austria and Czechoslovakia, Poland would just have been the country on the agenda at Munich!

    Why should Britain have any special regard for Poland? What did Poland ever do for Britain???

    Poland hardly existed before Versailles, and then it clambered to seize all the territory it could, including territory predominantly peopled by other ethnics. It then spent the years between the wars throwing its weight around, or rather, throwing the weight around of its allies - Britain and France. “If you don’t do what I say I’ll tell my big brother” attitude - made lots of friends with their neighbours that way. And then, when their neighbour Czechoslovakia was invaded by Germany, not only did they do nothing to assist, they jumped it and took Czech territory for themselves. And, when Germany invaded their other neighbours and good friends (?) Lithuania in the north shut the border on them. Had they been upsetting Lithuania as well? And, despite the fact that Hitler and Stalin had no time for each other, to say the least, they put that aside to join in invading Poland, because they both like Poland so much? And, the odd pockets of Polish guerrillas were so disunited they ranged from ardent Communist Soviets to Neo fascists, fought each other and some actually persecuted Polish Jews!!!

    60 Years on we are plagued by incessant revisionism of Poland’s contribution to the war? Gems like, ‘if not for Poland Enigma would never have been cracked’, and, ‘the Poles weren’t allow to march in the London Victory Parade’, and, ‘the impoverished post-war Polish people had to pay for the Polish War Memorial in England, and, ‘only the Poles could have taken Cassino’. All utter BUNK!

    And, the remarkable Warsaw uprising? Anything up to a quarter of a million Poles killed and a capital city destroyed for an alleged 15’000 German casualties and no change to the war - yes, that is remarkable I suppose.

    No.9
     
  19. Rebel

    Rebel Junior Member

    Ummmm, we are tlking about AFTER the war...
     
  20. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    No 9,
    The reference to Poland being betrayed also comes from the promised Anglo-French offensive of 1939 not appearing. Poland fought with the understanding that they would have the support of an offensive in the West an offensive that never materialised. Poland also provided a rather large army in exile whihc contributed to the Allied victory particlarly the Polish Air Force during the Battle of Britain.
    Poland became a Christian Kingdom in 966 so to say they 'hardly existed before Versailles' is absurd.
    Czechoslovakia seized Polish territory during the Polish Soviet War they also refused to allow Allied supplies to the Poles during the Polish Soviet War this was the reason for the bitter feelings between Poland and Czechoslovakia.
    This concept of Poland othrowing it's weight around and threatening it's neighbors with it's Allies I admit is completly new to me if you could elaborate that would be great.
    Poland's actions against Lithuanina are, to me, undefendable.
    The Polish Home Army was hardly a 'odd pocket' nor a disunited group they weren't Communist nor neo-Fascist.
    Polish mathematicians cracked the enigma machine in 1939 the information the Polish goverment had was forwarded to France and Britain. The Poles had re-created an Enigma machine which they also forwarded to the Allies. To say Poland had nothing to do with the cracking of Enigma is simply not supported by the facts it is also impossible to say without Polish help it would have been cracked anyway.
    Poles were not allowed to march in the victory parade in London. I am not familiar with the war memorial claim you made so I can not comment. Poles at Monte Cassino their claims seem to be National Bravado and they did take the Abbey after many other troops failed.
    The Warsaw Uprising was timed to coincide with a promised Soviet thrust to liberate the city. Stalin did not launch the promised attack leaving the Home Army in the lurch, Again Poland acted on promises from her Allies only to pay the price.
    The betrayal is after all the Poles contributed to the Allied war effort they got little for their efforts other than a 45 year Soviet occupation.
    My friend I think this 'revisionism' will continue for a great deal longer if your post is an example of what people really beleive about Poland's record in World War II.
    Take care,
    Neil :)
     

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