Best troops sent from Italy to France?

Discussion in 'Italy' started by vitellino, Dec 19, 2016.

  1. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello everyone,

    I am currently translating a document written in Italian into English, part of a piece of Italian research into the use of forced labour by the Wehrmacht in Italy and other occupied territories. In the introduction I read that one of the many reasons for the slow advance of Allied troops up the Italian Peninsula was that "the best troops and equipment had been sent to take part in the invasion of France."

    Perhaps I should ask the Italian who wrote it where he got his information from. Are we back again with the D Day Dodgers? I haven't translated the sentence literally as you might well imagine, but have slipped in "SOME OF " the best troops. I don't like that solution either, but as a translator I suppose I have to simply translate what I read.

    Any suggestions?

    Vitellino
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Put on a tin hat and take cover

    TD
     
  3. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I'll put the hat on but am not ready to take cover just yet....
     
  4. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Does the original text give grammatical or contextual clues to timing? Which of the following is suggested:

    a) the advance was slow from the start as the best troops & equipment were never sent there but reserved for Europe.

    b) the advance was slowed because the best troops & equipment were transferred from Italy to Europe.

    Your use of the past perfect suggests the former, which is complicated by the fact that there was no European front until mid-1944, except on the drawing board.
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Experienced troops were certainly sent from Italy for Overlord - 50, 51 and 7 Armd Divs plus others (the latter two received some negative rep in Normandy, so the 'best' claim is disputable). That would obviously affect operations, but we are taliking winter 43/44 so progress might not have been great whoever was involved.

    The best equipment wasn't sent away. The homecoming formations left their equipment in Italy and were re-equipped back in tbe UK. One of the Canadian historical reports (5 Cdn Armd Div?) commented on the poor state of the equipment they inherited from 7 Armd Div. It might be fair to say that the best equipment took longer to get to Italy once NWE became the priority.
     
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  6. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Thanks. The context was the second, namely that because the best troops had been withdrawn from the Italian front and sent to France the advance was slow. I have asked for clarification as I think he may even have been talking about the American forces who invaded mainland France from Corsica.

    Regards,

    Vitellino
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There's a comment here: The 8TH ARMOURED BRIGADE

    "In order to even out the Regiments with recent battle experience among Brigades which had not fought since France in 1940, certain changes were now made. The Staffordshire Yeomanry changed places with the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards in the 27th Armoured Brigade and the 3rd Battalion Royal Tank Regiment replaced the 24th Lancers in the 29th Armoured Brigade now commanded by Brigadier Harvey."

    And a lot of the troops destined for the invasion of France, I guess would have been termed "green" ?
    Green veterans....
     
  8. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Thank you everybody.

    Vitellino
     
  9. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    By best troops, he is referring to the entire French Expeditionary Corps which, after showing itself so able in the Fourth Battle of Cassino and ideal material for the mountain warfare of Italy, were shipped out after the fall of Rome and sent to take part in Op DRAGOON in Aug 44.

    Also included was HQ VI (US) Corps under the brilliant Lucien Truscott, 3 US Inf Div, 36 US Inf Div, 45 US Inf Div and 1 SSF from Anzio fame. These were all experiences HQs who knew how to handle large tasks.

    The departure of these seasoned troops, to be replaced by new Divs straight from the US and some Brazilians, most definitely slowed the Allied advance. Firstly, HQ IV (US) Corps, who replaced HQ VI (US) Corps, were brand new in theatre and their staff work was not as slick. This slowed their ability to mount operations against a retreating German army.

    Secondly, the length of the front line, which had been its shortest at 81 miles at Cassino, grew significantly beyond Rome. This combined with the departure of so many French and US formations compelled the British to take up more of the frontage of the front line. This, in turn, weakened their ability to concentrate their forces in the attack.

    Overlying all of this was the fact that any changeover of manpower naturally slows momentum and is a distraction from the advance.

    Op DRAGOON was fine for NW Europe but a disaster for the Allies' ability in Italy to take the fight to the Germans and they, the Germans, made the most of it between 5 Jun-15 Aug 44. After 15 Aug 44, the British decision to switch its assault on the Gothic Line from the central Apennines to the coast further slowed the advance.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY



    BTW - Not sure if the above documentary has been shown much in Italy?

    The World at War - Wikipedia

    13 "Tough Old Gut: Italy (November 1942 – June 1944)" 30 January 1974
    Emphasizes the difficult Italian Campaign beginning with Operation Torch in North Africa, the invasion of Sicily; Salerno, Anzio, Cassino; and the capture of Rome. Interviewees include General Mark Clark, Field Marshal Lord Harding, Bill Mauldin and Wynford Vaughan-Thomas.

    &



    19 "Pincers (August 1944 – March 1945)" 20 March 1974
    Operation Dragoon, the liberation of Paris, the Allied breakout in France and the failure of Operation Market Garden, the Warsaw Uprising, the Battle of the Bulgeand the crossing of the Rhine. In the East, the Romanian coup and the Soviet advance through Ukraine to East Prussia. Interviewees include Lieutenant GeneralBrian Horrocks, Wynford Vaughan Thomas, General Hasso von Manteuffel, Major General Francis de Guingand, W. Averell Harriman and Major General J. Lawton Collins.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  11. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Frank, you are a far more knowledgeable chap than me ( & that will always be the case.) There is no By best troops! You once said that a while back.
    idler has it correct in experience. Vitellino, can you please change the word best to experienced?

    A very good topic though.
    My nose is far from put out.

    Regards
    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  12. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I will certainly change the word to experienced. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Vitellino
     
  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I was interested to read Frank's assessment as he highlights the lack of experience of the staff/HQs of the new formations. My angle is the belief that the real value of the veteran formations which came back from Italy for Overlord was the experience of their command structures rather than their rank and file. An inexperienced HQ struggling to learn on the job could lose a lot more men a lot more quickly than a tyro section commander.
     
  14. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Andrew, you have has much knowledge has Frank. I would be a complete fool to ignore anything you both state. I was also interested in Frank's assessment. Whats the point of not listening, or reading what you chaps say?

    I only questioned the word Best. That is my only angle.

    Regards
    Stu.
     

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