BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Discussion in '1940' started by Rich Payne, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Rich,

    I think you will be correct.

    This is a very interesting thread and a superb example of what can be done on a forum like this. Unfortunately I don't have information on operations or markings to contribute. If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of my BEF War Establishment pages I can probably get them to you. I have very low level technical skills.

    I have come across a handwritten note in my file (boxfile not computer) which gives serial 73 as the anti tank company of a brigade, and 72 as the defence platoon. I can't give any source or reference and don't know what level of confidence you can have that it applies to this unit.

    Mike
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I must say Mike that the thread has progressed far further than I had even dared to hope for (much of the credit there must go to Andrew's organisational ability and knowledge).

    Your notes relating to '72' and '73' are interesting as they obviously can't belong to a brigade A/T company with a division as these are taken care of by the well-documented 33, 34 and 35 and of course they tie in exactly with the evidence provided by the two photographs showing 1 RIF in early 1940. I think that it would be quite appropriate for Andrew to note them in his list.

    Noel Burgess kindly provided me with a copy of your BEF establishment pages. Did you ever get as far as a full BEF orbat ?

    Rich
     
  3. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Rich,

    I probably have the means to make a complete orbat but I have never had the time. I removed the BEF section of the Trux website when it became clear that I did not have the time to work on both it and 21 Army Group. Blame Noel who sent me a number of references which I am still following up. I did encourage people to make copies of the BEF pages and share them.

    Mike
     
  4. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It just occurs to me that I had completely forgotten the addendum to the 1 Corps AoS listing which Drew found - the letter detailing markings for General Construction Companies RE - These are GHQ troops as the bar under is referred to.

    [​IMG]

    203 - 655 Gen Const. Coy
    210 - 656
    212 - 659
    213 - 660
    214 - 661
    215 - 665
    216 - 667
    217 - 668

    It's a shame that these don't clarify any previously found photographs but perhaps one day...
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Rich

    I had missed this picture. It is shown in a booklet of captured British equipment in German service.

    Based on the arrangement of the uprights on the rear body it could be a searchlight lorry. I also think the AoS plate, while dark on one vertical side is light on the other. Am I looking too hard? If it is then this would give us a searchlight regiment with a sequential number to go with the other searchlight vehicles with a '49' marking.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41322&stc=1&d=1290874008
    I also attach a Crossley IGL8 searchlight lorry for reference.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41323&stc=1&d=1290874130
    Andrew

    Just to revisit this post briefly. It looks to me as if my identification of the body type was certainly wrong. The workshop body seems to have the higher drop-side panel which hinges to form a workbench when open.

    This is another recent eBay shot showing how the woodwork differs. The vehicle to the right is puzzling me slightly. Its short wheelbase suggests a Laffly, perhaps an S25T but the mudguards seem too elaborate. Any views ?

    Unfortunately, there is a tarpaulin draped where any AoS marking would be.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    ...

    I've had a look in Hodges & Taylor (H&T) at the lists for GHQ and LoC troops 1st Army and if the system there was unchanged, it may give some clues. Page 108 of H&T shows consecutive numbers for HAA, followed by LAA but then by HAA again. However, it is complicated by the units under Allied Forces HQ for Operation Torch. It is noticeable though that there is a much higher sequence for AA units under GHQ Lines of Communication. This may be relevant as 2 AA Regt were LoC and not under the main GHQ troops orbat.

    If we could accept that 51st LAA used '37' then it would be logical that 58th LAA used '38', both from the point of view that they followed each other in the GHQ list of LAA regts and also followed each other in 2nd Anti Aircraft Brigade. I think that on the balance of probabilities, this is a possible !:)

    One aspect that we haven't looked at is separate numbers for AA Brigade HQs - Normally speaking, 1st, 2nd and 4th Anti-aircraft Brigade, 5th Searchlight Brigade, plus 3rd Anti-Aircraft Brigade HQs would have had their own serial. I wouldn't expect to see this on the dedicated lorries and tractors but some of the smaller vehicles and trucks could be from a brigade HQ. Logically, the sequence allocated to the brigade HQs would be a lower set than the serials for the regiments.

    I have updated the list of AoS numbers and looked back at this post. I haven't got the relevant pages of Hodges and Taylor with me but I think the approach you are proposing makes sense.

    I also agree with the principle of (broadly) sequential numbers. In your example and using the three regiments listed in Blaxland as comprising 2 AA Brigade, a strict sequence might be '35' as HQ 2 AA Brigade, '36' as 60 AA Regt, '37' as 51 LAA Regt and '38' as 58 LAA Regt.

    However, according to Derek Barton in (quixotically) post #34, the AoS '34' might be attributable to 60 HAA Regt. Also we know that the sequence for artillery regiments in Corps and Divisions was not strictly sequential so that could also apply to GHQ units.

    If we have a broken sequence then perhaps the allocation is: '31' - HQ 2 AA Bgde, '34' - 60 AA Regt, '37' - 51 LAA Regt and '38' - 58 LAA Regt ...

    ... or perhaps not!

    Andrew

    PS. Well done for spotting the construction companies. Glad to see they have a broken sequesnce! I have added them to the list.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    French truck could be a Latil M2TZ Rich.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Mike

    Thanks for the information on 72 and 73. I knew both of these pictures but didn't put them together until now. I will add 72 to the list.

    Andrew
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    French truck could be a Latil M2TZ Rich.

    Thanks Bod - Je suis merd with French vehicles !:)
     
  10. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rob

    Re Post 131 - Geometric Artillery Tactical Markings

    I have now received a reply from Paul Evans at Firepower. Unfortunately he has no information about these markings and referred me to Kew. Back to ebay for now then but thanks for the suggestion.

    Andrew
     
  11. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Rob

    Re Post 131 - Geometric Artillery Tactical Markings

    I have now received a reply from Paul Evans at Firepower. Unfortunately he has no information about these markings and referred me to Kew. Back to ebay for now then but thanks for the suggestion.

    Andrew

    No Worries Andrew, shame he could'nt help, but worth a try.
    Your Data-Base will be invaluable, as Tac No's have always been a pain.
    Keep up the good work!
    Regards
    Rob
     
  12. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Thanks for the encouragement Rob.

    I found this picture in Militaria Magazine Hors Serie No. 8. It shows BEF vehicles entering Belgium. I think the leading Bedford 'Joan' sports an AoS of 70 with bar below. The staff cars have a 12 and a 1 with no bars so from an unknown division (possible 4th?).

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41839&stc=1&d=1291913042

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41840&stc=1&d=1291913042

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  13. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    I found a picture on HMVF, posted by Les Freathy at: Morris Commercial gallery and I hope he doesn't mind me reproducing it here.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41934&stc=1&d=1292063897

    It shows a 16 on a RA plate (horizontal split red above blue below) with a bar below. Les captions it as a 'Morris CDSW early gun tractor of 97 field regt Kent Yeomanry in the Somme area 1940'.

    According to the Appendix in Blaxland, 97 Field Rgt RA less one battery was attached to III Corps. According to Derek Barton's site it was attached to III Corps 'as Army Troops'. Derek postulates an AoS marking for this regiment of a 10 with a bar above here RA 1939-45 3 Corps

    Can anyone shed any more light on how these pieces of information can be reconciled? For example could the detached battery have kept a GHQ code of 16 and gone to the Somme while the batteries attached to III Corps adopted the Corps marking of 10 with bar above?

    I guess the 97 Field Regt war diary might help if anyone has it.

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Kiwi REd One

    Kiwi REd One Junior Member

    The detached battery from 97th (Kent Yeomanry) Field Regt RA was 385 Battery commanded by Major Mullens. It was became part of 1 RHA (the other battery in 1 RHA was B/O battery RHA) which was attached to 51st Highland Division to operate in the Maginot Line on the French Border.

    Later the 51st was sent south of the Somme as part of IX French Corps. I RHA was surrounded with the bulk of 51st around St Valery en Caux on 10 June 1940 but Major Mullens won a DSO for leading the bulk of his battery east to Veules-les-Roses where they were evacuted sucessfully by the RN.

    So the Morris CDSW's in the above post must be 385 battery vehicles.

    I hope that helps.

    Sources are Saul David's "Sacrifice of the Highland Divison" and MG Farndale's "History of the Royal Regt of Artillery - the years of defeat 1939 - 41"

    Cheers
    KRO
     
  15. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Thanks KRO. I have access to neither book so you have helped a lot.

    We are trying to pin down which markings are which but of course the underlying stories and experiences are the real history.

    Andrew
     
    Rob Dickers likes this.
  16. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    One thing that strikes me is that the trees are not in leaf and there looks to be snow on the bank behind. I'd guess that this was an exercise during January / February 1940. The war diaries might confirm.

    Ellis states: "By the 9th of April a third corps was operational" so it would seem likely that if 97th Field Regt. were present in France prior to this date, it would have been as GHQ troops.
     
    Rob Dickers likes this.
  17. Kiwi REd One

    Kiwi REd One Junior Member

    May 1940:

    Had another look at Farndale and may have an explaination as to why the 385 battery vehicles (if that is what unit they are) have the 16 split red and blue GHQ plates on.

    1 RHA was originally made up of B/O and A/E batteries RHA each with 8 x 18/25pdrs with Dragon tractors. The Regt arrived in France on 21 October 1939 and although originally designated (with 2 RHA) to be part of the Support Group of 1st Armoured Division neither 1 or 2 RHA ever joined that Division. Instead 1 RHA came under direct command of GHQ BEF and was adminstered by I Corps in the Albert region. On 15 April 1940 1 RHA was ordered to the Saar region with 51st Division. This is when A/E and 385 Batteries were swapped, supposedly as 385 Battery had better tractors (Morris CDSW) to make the long journey south to the Saar.

    So 385 Battery joined 1 RHA, a GHQ controlled unit, and would have used that units AoS symbol. Or is that too simplistic an explaination?
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    One thing that strikes me is that the trees are not in leaf and there looks to be snow on the bank behind. I'd guess that this was an exercise during January / February 1940. The war diaries might confirm.

    Ellis states: "By the 9th of April a third corps was operational" so it would seem likely that if 97th Field Regt. were present in France prior to this date, it would have been as GHQ troops.


    I Corps were on a big exercise in April called 'Manning'. I've got 97 FRA's diary so I'll have a butchers and see what they were doing for any clues.

    I'm out of date with this thread so send me a message if you think I can help with any other queries that may help incase I've got the diary.

    Cheers
    Andy

    Edit:

    In Sept when they mobilized they look to be part of 44 Div.

    Oct they appear to be taking orders from I Corps although they have II Corps Admin orders in their diary.

    Nov the Regt takes part in at least 5 exercises that seem to last no longer than 24 hrs.

    Dec more exercises.

    Jan more exercises with a three day road and counter-battery exercise started on 7th.

    Feb more exercises and the Regt appears to still be under I Corps. 26th the regiment are told they are officially within I Corps.

    March more exercise and the Regt moved to a training area on 19th.

    April training and more exercises. Regt comes under 5 Div from 8th Dec. Regt. told on 17th that 1 Bty is going to the SAAR. On 22nd 385th Bty leaves the Regt to join 1 RHA.

    May Regt minus 385 Bty told it is part of 5 Div, GHQ mobile reserve on 10th. A/E Bty, 1 RHA attached on 11th until return of 385 Bty. The Regt seems to have supported 13 Bde for most of the fighting in May.

    June 385 Bty rejoins the Regt. in England on 17th .


    Hope that helps?
     
  19. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Albert is of course on the Somme so the location fits.

    If 97th Field became part of 1 Corps on 26/2/1940 then the photo must pre-date that (the background would seem to support this - it's not April, I'm sure).

    The vehicles are tidily stowed. I'd suspect that January road exercise.

    Andy, are there any locations in the war diaries for the exercises ?
     
  20. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    The information you have given is very helpful. Catching up with what I think you are saying:

    Assuming we are happy that (1) Les is right on regiment and (2) the picture predates the detachment of 385 battery, then what we see must be a 97 Field Regt GHQ marking (and not a 1 RHA marking).

    So until the assumptions change I guess we can log 16 as 97 Field.

    I asked Les on HMVF if he can confirm his caption but I am not sure if he will see the post or reply.

    In parallel with thinking about the above - any ideas on the number 70 in post #152?

    Andrew
     

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