BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Discussion in '1940' started by Rich Payne, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Here is another vehicle with an AoS code with a bar underneath. A pretty low resolution original (from where I don't recall) but clearly Morris 6 wheelers. They are not CDSW artillery tractors (although at first glance they look like that) because they have windscreens. So they must be Bofors tractors and this must be a light anti aircraft unit.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41418&stc=1&d=1291043315

    The AoS number, while small, is reasonably clearly a 37 and the colours on the plate can again be interpreted as vertically split red and blue.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41419&stc=1&d=1291043773

    Another one for the list?

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm sure you're right Andrew. That means 37 allocated to a GHQ LAA unit. I really don't think that this sort of information has been collated anywhere else. Well done !
     
  3. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Great detective work Andrew!

    Cheers,
    Jan
     
  4. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    This is a 38 on a vehicle in Calais from a Bundesarchiv picture. Any ideas on this? Colour background / type of car / unit?

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41438&stc=1&d=1291130680

    I also attach an updated list.

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  5. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Your turning up some great pics here , the car looks like an Austin 7 , think these were the bottom rung of staff cars and never seen in any future campaigns.
    Truck in middle background looks like a civvy Commer. Humber station wagon behind, Hillmans? to the left and right and a Bedford ML? ambulance.
    What appears to be a newspaper van and taxi in background :)
     
  6. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Jan

    I am trying to collect examples of these geometrical artillery markings. There seem to be triangles and circles divided up in various ways. They are to do with battery and gun within an artillery unit. They seem to have been replaced in 1940 with a system based on a small plate similar to that used for the AoS markings.

    Andrew

    Andrew,

    Here's another one!

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Andrew,

    Here's another one!

    [​IMG]

    Jan

    Jan, that is from what must be the first Bedford MW contract - Chassis MW 1001-on.

    Indeed, strange markings. do we suppose red and blue ?
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    This is a 38 on a vehicle in Calais from a Bundesarchiv picture. Any ideas on this? Colour background / type of car / unit?

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41438&stc=1&d=1291130680

    I also attach an updated list.

    Andrew

    I'm sure that this is the old vertical red / blue again and the location does indeed seem to be Calais which is most helpful.

    Ellis refers to anti aircraft defences being moved to Calais on 20th May, comprising eight 3.7" guns of 2nd Heavy Anti-Aircraft (which this car is not from, it has a vertical colour change), eight machine guns of 58th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment and one battery of 2nd Searchlight Regiment.

    A check of the identified 1940 RA Anti-aircraft casualties in Calais South cemetery shows only 2 Battery, 1st Searchlight Regiment and 172 Battery, 58th LAA.

    If this '38' indicates 58 LAA Regt., it would be tempting to wonder, based on the GHQ orbat, if '37' (The Morris in #121 and perhaps in Cassel #45) might be 51 LAA Regt.
     
  9. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    JCB

    Thanks for identifying the vehicles. If you want to see a few more, type in Calais as a search term here: Category:Images from the German Federal Archive - Wikimedia Commons

    Rich

    That is just the sort of logic that will narrow down what AoS belongs to which unit. But can we discount 2nd Heavy Anti-Aircraft and 2nd Searchlight? I think the heavy AA unit at La Panne had an AoS with a vertically split background and so did the searchlight trucks in other posts.

    Jan

    Sad to see the casualty in the Bedford MWD but the geometric artillery marking is quite amazing. What an odd way of dividing the triangle. Certainly three colours, and my guess Rich is that it is definitely red and blue but I am not sure about the third colour - the bar at the bottom here. White? Yellow? I am going to see what pictures I can accumulate and try to work out a possible sequence.

    Andrew
     
  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    You're right Andrew. I was incorrect to discount 2 AA Regt. due to the vertical colours. I ended up chasing my tail a little last night. At least on a thread such as this there is usually someone to point out failures of logic !

    One of the problems here is that we don't know how the orbat for BEF GHQ was set out and because it was unique, we have nothing to compare. Were the serials issued per AA brigade or in batches AA / LAA / SL etc. ?

    I've had a look in Hodges & Taylor (H&T) at the lists for GHQ and LoC troops 1st Army and if the system there was unchanged, it may give some clues. Page 108 of H&T shows consecutive numbers for HAA, followed by LAA but then by HAA again. However, it is complicated by the units under Allied Forces HQ for Operation Torch. It is noticeable though that there is a much higher sequence for AA units under GHQ Lines of Communication. This may be relevant as 2 AA Regt were LoC and not under the main GHQ troops orbat.

    If we could accept that 51st LAA used '37' then it would be logical that 58th LAA used '38', both from the point of view that they followed each other in the GHQ list of LAA regts and also followed each other in 2nd Anti Aircraft Brigade. I think that on the balance of probabilities, this is a possible !:)

    One aspect that we haven't looked at is separate numbers for AA Brigade HQs - Normally speaking, 1st, 2nd and 4th Anti-aircraft Brigade, 5th Searchlight Brigade, plus 3rd Anti-Aircraft Brigade HQs would have had their own serial. I wouldn't expect to see this on the dedicated lorries and tractors but some of the smaller vehicles and trucks could be from a brigade HQ. Logically, the sequence allocated to the brigade HQs would be a lower set than the serials for the regiments.
     
  11. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Gentlemen
    Your doing great work here, please keep it up!
    Try Woolwich as regards the Arty No's
    research@firepower.org.uk
    Mr Paul Evans 020 8312 7125 or the switchboard number: 020 8855 7755
     
  12. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rob

    Thanks. I have sent Firepower an e-mail.

    Andrew
     
  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Here's an interesting one from the IWM but I'm not sure that it helps much - Captioned as follows :-

    "Men of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers transport a French 25mm 34 SA anti-tank gun on the back of a Bedford MWD 15cwt truck at Dury, 14 January 1940."

    [​IMG]

    The 1st Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers practising portee with the rather dreadful Hotchkiss 25mm A/T gun and showing '73' with the GHQ bar. Ellis lists 1 RIF as part of 25th Brigade, 50th Division but the puzzling thing here is that 50th Division were a 'motor division' with only two brigades and I can't track down 25th Brigade although they are mentioned in accounts of the campaign. Presumably they were GHQ reserve ?
     
  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Blast these low res IWM images. This one is captioned as 12th Royal Lancers who were GHQ troops.

    [​IMG]

    It looks like '124' to me and presumably on black. I must go and look at the originals again.
     
  15. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Rich,

    25 Brigade were as you suggest a GHQ Reserve Brigade. They were sent to 50 Division to bring it up to the more normal three brigades. In late May it seems to have had a varied career being attached to various formations including Pol force to defend the La Bassee Canal. More interesting perhaps is that the Royal Irish Fusiliers should not have had anti tank guns. These were held in a Brigade AT Company.

    Mike
     
  16. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rich

    73 also seems to appear on a bren carrier which is shown in Pathe News, clip 1039.27, being used to help plough a field during the phoney war!

    Could the 73 plate be a dummy number used for photographs?

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41651&stc=1&d=1291544107

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  17. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    I mentioned in post #69 a Humber Snipe(?) staff car in the background with an AoS plate with a bar underneath. I said I had seen it in other pictures in Belgium. I have now found it in another picture and here is a close-up.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41653&stc=1&d=1291545422


    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  18. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Rich

    Here is another picture of a 12th Lancers Morris CS9 Armoured Car in Oct 1939 at Villier Saint Simon. The 129 can be seen more clearly here.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41655&stc=1&d=1291545779

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Rich

    73 also seems to appear on a bren carrier which is shown in Pathe News, clip 1039.27, being used to help plough a field during the phoney war!

    Could the 73 plate be a dummy number used for photographs?

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41651&stc=1&d=1291544107

    Andrew

    Similar scenes appear in the IWM collection (it seems that the stills and movie photographers frequently travelled together).

    [​IMG]

    The picture is captioned as follows :-

    "Bren gun carriers of 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers being used to pull ploughs for French farmers at Marchiennes, 5 March 1940."

    So apparently 1 RIF did carry the '73', at least up to and including March 1940

    I wonder if the old farmer could turn with his plough as fast as a Carrier can ?:)
     
  20. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Rich,

    25 Brigade were as you suggest a GHQ Reserve Brigade. They were sent to 50 Division to bring it up to the more normal three brigades. In late May it seems to have had a varied career being attached to various formations including Pol force to defend the La Bassee Canal. More interesting perhaps is that the Royal Irish Fusiliers should not have had anti tank guns. These were held in a Brigade AT Company.

    Mike


    Thanks Mike. Sometimes these details are quite difficult to pick out whilst balancing half a dozen reference books on the knees.

    Weren't the Brigade A/T companies formed out of the infantry battalions within the brigade ? 50th Division were newly arrived in france in January 1940. Presumably the gun crews remained badged to their parent battalions ?
     

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