BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Greengrass's Morris was an MRA1 - built about ten years after this pic was taken - and was an ex-military vehicle - not impressed like this one

Chris

 

In JCB's post 317 I note that picture 6 (from war illustrated) shows the AOS with double bar above - you know, the one I thought wasnt a double bar)

Also, could I ask about the Bedford in pic. one - is this impressed civilian vehicle?.

Noel

 

Greengrass's Morris was an MRA1 - built about ten years after this pic was taken - and was an ex-military vehicle - not impressed like this one

Chris

Don't want to sound like a smart a*** but Greengrass's wasn't an MRA1 or military it was a civilian LC .My point badly made was that this cab (made until 1960 I think ) only has detail differences from the late 1930's version which to me looked very modern for its time.


Also, could I ask about the Bedford in pic. one - is this impressed civilian vehicle?.


I think it is , the two Bedford O 's on the quayside are interesting too, they have box type bodies with a curved front .


Can't make out markings on these two Bedfords but as vehicles they are interesting, as is the guard, to my eyes beamed up from WW1Also two German snaps one with clear AOS .no. and a yard full of BEF civvy style trucks

Craig

 

I would say don't confuse working between Sept and April in 'peace time' and what happened from 10th May onwards. My understanding (I'm still struggling to understand the Orbats of the BEF) was that there was for want of a better description two classes of Infantry Battalions in France before the 10th May. The 'First Class' battalions were tasked within the Dyle Plan and whilst waiting for the Germans to make their move to keep them busy were involved in various infantry based training, maintaining/repairing roads, helping the local French population (Good PR), building defences and rotating through the SAAR Front etc. The 'Second Class' battalions were employed within the Lines of Communication and even after the 10th May or whenever the Germans attacked they would continue with the current tasks - which was labour, security and other admin/ manual labour type tasks and were equiped acordingly minimum fighting equipment and infantry training-Infact many were far short of their war establishment and some battalions were still receining troops as late as April with some not even fired infantry weapons. The impression I get is that they were rushed to France for two reasons. One to help with the ever increasing problems with logistics within the LoC's and two to say on paper to the French we had committed more divisions to France to keep the French happy.

I have not seen any infantry battalions called Pioneer Battalions in any books or official documents whilst serving in France and if anone has please tell me the source-I'd like to read it.

Still waiting for someone to correct me-assuming I'm wrong

Andy

I take it back - Whilst working on a complete BEF Orbat I've found ref to all the Infantry Pioneer Battalions and whilst on the subject Infantry Garrison Battalions too.

I'll get my coat

 

Just to return to the main track, here is a Bedford MWD with a 116 AoS marking. I don't think it has been posted before. I certainly haven't logged it in the spreadsheet.

Worth noting that the marking has been painted on, so it would probably have been added later in the campaign (but not I think by its tough-guy driver). Now then we have 116,117 and 118 with the latter two linked to armour.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44129&stc=1&d=1295884062

Also I have added a Matador picture to this thread http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/1940/43942d1295540632-aec-matador-bef-first-picture-matador-my-picture-jpg which carries a 47 with bar below. This has a vertical red blue split which indicates an AA unit. Rich has suggested a unit with the Advanced Air Striking Force - 12th AA Bde or 53rd or 73rd AA Regts. Any confirmation of this?

Andrew

 

Slightly off topic , but can anyone translate the divison / AOS from this very early CMP gun tractor's markings. (from mlu forum)

 

There have been a couple of very good posts on Missing Lynx by Shane Lovell about markings and he has helpfully given me some guidance on where we might expect to find documents about GHQ markings. You can find his notes at this link:

Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: Finding marking instructions

In particular he says:

"finding the specific instructions involves considerable and comprehensive file searching at the GHQ, Corps and Divisional level. Responsibility for the issue of marking instructions seems to have rested with the 'Staff Duties' element of GHQ, Corps and Divisional units. At the GHQ level, the specific section seems to be Staff Duties 2, who were responsible for both 'A' and 'B' vehicles. SD 2a covered 'A' vehicles while SD 2b covered 'B' vehicles. Sometimes these sections kept individual war diaries so you should keep and eye out for reference to these."

He goes on to show an example of the type of document which might help:

"The following document comes from WO169-931 GHQ ME SD 2B 1941 and has been included to demonstrate the linkage between the War Office pamphlet [which he described earlier] and GHQ decisions on formation signs. Note the correspondence reference, CRME/27954/GSD 2b, the GSD 2b refers to the section rsponsible for drafting the letter. This can be a good way to identify other war diaries to explore when using subject specific files, such as 'vehicle marking'."

Sadly I am nowhere near Kew but if anyone should happen to see such files it would be interesting to find out if there are any references to GHQ AoS numbers.

Andrew

 

Very hand painted looking 93 with white bar below on Albion x-ray truck in France 1939.
Craig

 

Craig

Well done. I thought I had exhausted the Pathe News material - where did you find these?

This font is really small compared to others (I think I read somewhere that the number was supposed to fill the square) and clearly painted on. The background looks very black.

You may recall post #33 showed a Morris CD ambulance in Dunkirk with an AoS of 90 with bar below and I now feel brave enough to show some Austin K2s which look to me like they have 92 with bar below. What do you think?

Anyone any idea about the unit for the X-Ray vehicle?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44315&stc=1&d=1296065461

Andrew

 

It makes a 'flash' appearance here but sadly is the only vehicle among a lot of nasty fractures !
MOBILE X-RAY UNIT - FRANCE 1939 - British Pathe

 

This is a 38 on a vehicle in Calais from a Bundesarchiv picture. Any ideas on this? Colour background / type of car / unit?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41438&stc=1&d=1291130680

I also attach an updated list.

Andrew

Here's another Austin 7 with a bar below, AoS 34 this time:



Jan

 

Here's another Austin 7 with a bar below, AoS 34 this time:



Jan

An interesting photo as it shows AoS markings at division, corps and GHQ levels but I can't pick out a single formation sign.

The Morris is marked to an infantry division and the lorry is corps ammunition park.

Is there a higher re image available ?

 

Is there a higher re image available ?

Rich,

Unfortunately not... Found it on eBay and this is the "high res" version...

Jan

 

Some more pictures from eBay: a carrier in Ghyvelde:



Jan

Same place, seen from along the canal:



Jan

 

1 Div carrier, with a BSA M20 in the background:



Jan

 

Those are nicely composed photos again. A cut above the 9x7 snapshots.

'13' on red will be the senior battalion of the senior brigade - 3rd Battalion, Grenadier Guards if I'm reading it correctly.

Do we know that Naval monument ?

 

Do we know that Naval monument ?

Yes we do!



Jan

 

Same place, seen from along the canal:



Jan

The same place, seen from the other side:



Jan

 

Here's another Austin 7 with a bar below, AoS 34 this time:



Jan

Quite a crop of good pictures Jan and this one even has a GHQ marking with bar below. I see about 50% of the little Austin Seven's radiator is covered by the AoS plate! Can't have been good for cooling.

The number 34 is the same as that which appeared on a 3 inch AA gun at La Panne (see posts #25,26 and 27). Derek Barton thought that it could be 60 HAA or 73 HAA. I assume this AoS has a red blue vertically split colour like the AA gun but I can't see at all.

Andrew

 

Same place, seen from along the canal:



Jan

Is this the same place again or am I being fooled by the 'toothed' gable in both pictures?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44618&stc=1&d=1296489802

or maybe its this place - the Franco Belgian frontier at Bray Dunes?

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44653&stc=1&d=1296499279

Andrew