BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

I can't seem to get my head around the Pioneer Battalions. Could it be a pre BEF thing concept that was never used in France? I know some infantry battalions were used for labour (I'm reading about them now) but they deployed already within a larger formation from what I can make out. ie 12th 23rd and 46th Div.

2 Buffs were part of 44 Div and they were tasked to advance to the Escaut.

I can only find three mentions of Infantry Battalion Establishments in Philson's work: Infantry Battalion (Higher Establishment), Infantry Battalion and Infantry Garrison Battalion (Overseas Defence).

Hope I'm not confusing anyone.

 

And why use regular battalions as pioneers? According to the Essex history, a number of regular battalions (2 Essex, 2 Buffs and 1 HLI) had been earmarked for pioneer work because there was no pioneer corps in the pre-war army and because of a shortage of modern weapons to bring all regular battalions to full war establishment.

Regarding their parent formations, on 7 Oct 40 2 Essex were warned for a move to join 2 Corps. En route, they were told they were GHQ Tps on loan to 2 Corps.

 

I was wondering the same thing (regarding pioneers) - and this links to my "unluckiest Dunkirk evacuee" thread concerning private Cecil Belsey of 2 Buffs. Would the role of 1940 pioneer units be so very different to the labour battalions?

It seems to me that British generals were expecting to start WW2 precisely where the Great War left off, with both sides sitting in trenches. They wanted large formations of men armed with picks and spades, trained and ready to dig rather than to fight, with other formations with rifles and brens, trained and ready to occupy the resulting mud-holes.

 

I have updated the list of numbers. It is growing quite impressively.

Can I assume the date of your booklet Andy is about 27 Feb 1940? The typed order correcting the shape of the 48th Div Insignia to include 'diamond' has that date and the booklet has been amended to show the 48th Div Insignia correctly so is probably of about the same date.

Andrew

 

I would say don't confuse working between Sept and April in 'peace time' and what happened from 10th May onwards. My understanding (I'm still struggling to understand the Orbats of the BEF) was that there was for want of a better description two classes of Infantry Battalions in France before the 10th May. The 'First Class' battalions were tasked within the Dyle Plan and whilst waiting for the Germans to make their move to keep them busy were involved in various infantry based training, maintaining/repairing roads, helping the local French population (Good PR), building defences and rotating through the SAAR Front etc. The 'Second Class' battalions were employed within the Lines of Communication and even after the 10th May or whenever the Germans attacked they would continue with the current tasks - which was labour, security and other admin/ manual labour type tasks and were equiped acordingly minimum fighting equipment and infantry training-Infact many were far short of their war establishment and some battalions were still receining troops as late as April with some not even fired infantry weapons. The impression I get is that they were rushed to France for two reasons. One to help with the ever increasing problems with logistics within the LoC's and two to say on paper to the French we had committed more divisions to France to keep the French happy.

I have not seen any infantry battalions called Pioneer Battalions in any books or official documents whilst serving in France and if anone has please tell me the source-I'd like to read it.

Still waiting for someone to correct me-assuming I'm wrong

Andy

 

It's nice to see the list growing. There are still a lot of gaps and much is conjecture but there are patterns emerging.

Rewdco has found another photo with interesting markings. Unfortunately, the AoS is barely visible but appears that it might be a '6' on a horizontally divided panel. The 'AA' on the side would seem to be an RA Tac sign. In the rear, it has one of the cable laying drums and these vehicles seem to have extra antennae. If it is Divisional artillery, then presumably in some way linked to the OP function.

 

I'd put money on that will being on the Bergues - Furnes Canal. ID the location and ID the unit

 

Rich,

The AA looks as if it's been painted over a "6", but the number on the tailgate looks like a "4" to me (on a diagonally split background)...???



Jan

 

Ah, I see where you're looking. I thought that there was a '6' on the far side of the diagonal brace on the tailgate which would be a more usual place for an AoS plate. I can indeed see the '4' though. This would seem to suggest a vehicle that was transferred from a divisional Anti tank regt to a Field Artillery Regt. AA would indicate A Troop I think.

 

Troops on road making in France , its a impressed Dennis with a very clear AOS no. 18 and looks like winter.

 

You can almost see the drivers cap badge too.

 

Caption of this pic quite specific -51st Higland Divison Moselle 1940 - bren ? carrier AOS no. 22

 

re post #291.

Rich
Is your Norton bearing 2125 (h) on a 1940 photo or later; the serial was still being used in 1944.

 

re post #291.

Rich
Is your Norton bearing 2125 (h) on a 1940 photo or later; the serial was still being used in 1944.



Well I never ! It is a September 1939 photo taken by Keating at Cherbourg. Obviously posed, I now know that they were simply pretending to adjust the footrests on a bike that was on the workshop strength !

It's this picture :- (I have a proper copy).

No.3 Port Workshop Detachment / Impressed 16H

Can you trace 1132 (I think) - also on a Norton.

 

1132 denotes 2 Field Regt RA of 1 Infantry Division.

RW

 

1132 denotes 2 Field Regt RA of 1 Infantry Division.

RW

Thanks RW. This is the photograph that I was curious about. I don't know where the scan came from. The helmet cover and Service Dress suggest 1939. The telegraph pole looks French but the civilians in the background look almost modern.



If he's a re-enactor then he's a damned good one.

I can see the RA collar dogs now, suggesting that my reading of the 1132 movement code is correct.

 

Afew more from Pathe etc, just noticed the a lot of the ' War illustrated ' stuff is from Pathe ( or the still photographer was in the same spot at same time). Conversely War Illus has pics that have no Pathe films published like the anti tank gun at Menin Gate 27? May .So wonder if there is film of this ?

 

Interesting selection although no AoS markings with bar below indicating army troops. The furniture van trying to pretend it is a tiger is French.

I have not seen the film with the first picture. The 42 with bar above and the arrow formation sign of I Corps indicates it is the I Corps Ammunition Park, RASC. (The 42 should be on a diagonally split red and green background.) Can you tell me the Pathe reference?

Andrew

 

A rasc film ! 08.35min
Thought it was France at first but flour mill behind has SOLENT on it and is still there.

THE ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS reel 1 - British Pathe

Craig

 

No2 is a Light Dragon for towing 2pdr AT. Quite rare. Dinky Toys made more than the army ever had.

Mike