BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Good Morning All -

I have been following the lines ref the AoS/Veh numbering, especially that of a Lt Tk VIB with '118'...if I may I would like to throw my bit in as well.

First thing first, all numbering in the BEF will have been largely dominated by the 12 April 1940 instructions issued by the War Office (57/Overseas/273(SD.II) that can now be studied in the Nat Archives under (WO32/11617). This doc must be seen as the master instruction although of course, there were numerous deviations.

Second, I have found that you really need three pieces of info to really identify a vehicle - especially the armoured end of things (tanks & carriers). These are

A. The veh serial number (the so-called T. number).
B. The vehicle registration number (VRN) if it had one.
C. Any regimental or divisional insignia.

The April 1940 instruction stipulated that all Corps troops were to display a 2" horizontal white bar above the AoS number, with all GHQ troops to have a similar bar below the AoS. Unfortunately, the instruction did not cover the two Motor Divisions with the BEF (23 Northumbrian & 50 Tyne Tees). What does fall out of observation with these is that the M/C battalions of both probably sported an AoS 18.

Taking this a stage further, each AoS number would have been on a coloured background. In April 1940 these were:

Div Tps - Black
Lt Armd Bdes - Red
Hvy Armd Bde - Green
Div Arty - Red/Blue, divided horizontally
Div Engrs - Blue
Motor Bns - Brown
Div RASC - Red/Green divided diagonally

To further complicate the piece, 1st Armoured Div that arrived so late, sported its own numbering system alongside its 'Rhino' badge - more later.

Taking all of the above into consideration my best guesses for the armoured boys are as follows:

Div Cav Regts - carried '2' on Black (Tks & carriers)

- 1 Inf Div - 13/18 H - '2' with White Triangle
- 2 Inf Div - 4/7 RDG - '2' with Crossed Keys
- 3 Inf Div - 15/19 H - '2' with Red Triangle on Black Triangle
- 4 Inf Div - 5 INNIS DG - '2' with Red Roundel with upper left sectioned
- 48 Inf Div - 1 LBY - '2' with Blue Oval, Red Diamond & Parrot...then
- 51 Inf Div - 1 LBY - '2' with Blue Square, Red Circle & 'HD'

Also present:

- 1 F&FY - Thought to have used a stylised 'Elk's Head'
- ERY - Pt of 1st Armd Recce Bde - no insignia known at present

Wheeled Recce was as follows:

- 12 L - AoS 129 with bar below (Morris Armd Cars)
- 4 NF - Red & White pennant on hull sides (Daimler Sct Cars)

1st Army Tank Brigade:

Consisted of 4 & 7 RTR. Both sported AoS of '4' on Red with Bar Above

1st Armoured Division:

All vehs meant to have white Rhino with fol numbers:

- HQ 2 Armd Bde - '3' on Red
- Queen's Bays - '4' on Red
- 9 Lancers - '5' on Red
- 10 Hussars - '6' on Red

- HQ 3 Armd Bde - '7' on Green
- 2 RTR - '8' on Green
- 3 RTR - '9' on Green
- 5 RTR - '10' on Green

Quite often, these numbers were painted straight onto the veh with no coloured backing...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at '118' and the other carriers sporting '17'...

Carrier with AoS ‘17’, VRN ‘HMH 183’ & T.2630...

This AoS ‘17’ is a Divisional number (no bar). Numbers 17,18 & 19 were assigned to Bns of the div 2nd Inf Bde.

Lt Tk VIB AoS 118 (Bar below), VRNs HMC 647 & HMC 649, T.4294 & T.4296...

These two are more difficult...

Bar Below equates to GHQ Tps...
118 – not identified as yet

but by pure chance the Bovington Tank Museum holds a series of ledgers listing vehicle T Numbers and where they initially went to...for Lt Tks VIB T.4294 & T.4296 it states they went to the 1st Anti-Tank Bde...but this was likely in 1939. I suggest therefore that the vehs belonged to a GHQ Anti-Tank unit or poss an ad-hoc Recce unit, but I doubt the latter.

Hope all this helps. Someone out there must have come across further Corps & GHQ AoS lists...?


Roddy

Roddy

Thanks for the detailed summary. A good synopsis. A few additional points that are not strictly related to this thread but anyway:

Coloured backing - regarding the units in 1st Armoured Division, you mention that 'Quite often, these numbers were painted straight onto the veh with no coloured backing...' Evidence seem to show that the numbers were painted on with the coloured square behind but the rhino lacked its coloured backing.

4th Div Sign - you mention 4 Inf Div - 5 INNIS DG - '2' with Red Roundel with upper left sectioned. Mr Zaloga in his book Blitzkrieg does show this later form of 4th Division formation sign but in BEF days the upper right segment is the one which was separated. (Probably changed later to confuse the enemy.)

AoS 18 - you mention that the M/C battalions of both 23 Northumbrian & 50 Tyne Tees probably sported an AoS 18. This seems to be the case for 4 Northumberland Fusiliers, which was the motorcycle battalion of 50 Tyne Tees (seen in lots of of pictures entering Belgium) but according to Rolfi's latest posts this may not have been the case for 8 Northumberland Fusiliers which was with 23rd Division and according to the war diary carried a 20 on brown or black.

On the AoS 118 with bar below - you say that the Bovington Tank Museum holds a series of ledgers listing vehicle T Numbers and where they initially went to...for Lt Tks VIB T.4294 & T.4296 [AoS1 118] it states they went to the 1st Anti-Tank Bde. I can't find an Anti Tank Brigade mentioned. Could this mean 1st Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade?

Andrew

 

There's really no answer to that !

Anyway, back to business.

Drew's link to 'Critical Past' has led me to this RASC ambulance at Boulogne



..wearing '157' and with that odd dark line through the white bar again. It's above so it should be a Corps marking but '157' is an impossibly high number. Was this a unique RASC system ? The other vehicles where it appears seem to be troop transport RASC.

Rich

This is a complete conundrum. What I can say is that the marking shows the late version of the RASC flash. We have established on earlier posts that GHQ RASC units may have used the late version whereas Corps and Divisional RASC units clearly used the earlier version. (See post # 91 for pictures of the two versions).

Regarding the double bar - it looks different to other examples. Is it just a strap? On which film did you find it?

Andrew

 

On the AoS 118 with bar below - you say that the Bovington Tank Museum holds a series of ledgers listing vehicle T Numbers and where they initially went to...for Lt Tks VIB T.4294 & T.4296 [AoS1 118] it states they went to the 1st Anti-Tank Bde. I can't find an Anti Tank Brigade mentioned. Could this mean 1st Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade?

With Arras as the location, could 1 Anti-Tank Brigade be a corruption of 1 Army Tank Brigade? Could 118 be the Bde HQ?

Significant arguments against it are:
i) the HQ bearing an Army bar whilst the 4 R Tks had a Corps bar, and
ii) you would normally expect the formation HQ's serial (118) to be lower than the subordinate unit (4 for 4 R Tks).

 

There was no Anti-Tank Brigade in France From Sept 39 to Jun 40. There was only Anti-Tank Company's within Brigades and RA Anti-Tank Regiments.

There was 3 Tank Brigades and 2 Armoured Recce Brigades which you appear to know already. The only No.1 Anti-Tank Coy was part of 1 Guards Brigade.

 

There was no Anti-Tank Brigade in France From Sept 39 to Jun 40. There was only Anti-Tank Company's within Brigades and RA Anti-Tank Regiments.

Thought it sounded odd.

There was 3 Tank Brigades...

Who were the other two, Andy, please? Joslen only lists 1 Army Tk Bde as serving with the BEF?

 

Sorry Andrew I was having a senior moment!

1 Army Tank Brigade

1 Armoured Brigade
2 Armoured Brigade

1 Army Recce Brigade
2 Army Recce Brigade

 

It comes to us all...

 

I got some reading glasses for the first time a few mths back but I can't get used to wearing them and as a result rarely do.

 

How about:

117 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry
118 East Riding Yeomanry

Both of 1 LARB as it was formed, not as it was planned. The sequence based on the order of precedence of the Yeomanry regiments.

Not having a parent Inf Div, the ERY seem to have been GHQ Troops as soon as they arrived in France. The likelihood is that they only ever had a GHQ code.

FF Yeo were released from 51 Inf Div to GHQ at the end of Mar 40 so had time to put their new number up.

1 Lothian & Border Yeomanry was meant to join 1 LARB (as the revised plan was to brigade the three Yeomanry regiments for additional training) but went back to 51 Div when the balloon went up in Norway. Had they joined, they would have been the senior regiment: 116?? Of course, it may be that the 117 & 118 codes were just sequential codes for GHQ Troops and not related to the LARBs.

Despite being 2 LARB, there are photos of 15/19 H going into Belgium still sporting the 3 Div triangles but no obvious AoS code.

Your 116,117 and 118 numbers for the three 1 LARB units sounds like a plausible explanation. Confirming that an ERY Mk VIB would have been driving through Lens at the time of the filming of the tank with 118 on it would help that idea. FFY appear to have been near Ath at the time the photo of the Mk VIB was taken there. Is there a day by day listing of whereabouts for each of these two units somewhere? Philson?

By the way - if your 116,117,118 are right, what number would have been given to the HQ of 1 LARB?

To keep us guessing, here is another MK VIB that looks like it may have a 117 with bar below. I think it is from Ebay, with no mention of date or place.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42651&stc=1&d=1293563219

Andrew

 

What is the current status of the Excel file?

Looking for confirmation on the 1LBY and 1RHA.

Steve

 

What is the current status of the Excel file?

Looking for confirmation on the 1LBY and 1RHA.

Steve

I have updated the file - see attached.

Andrew

 

Rich

This is a complete conundrum. What I can say is that the marking shows the late version of the RASC flash. We have established on earlier posts that GHQ RASC units may have used the late version whereas Corps and Divisional RASC units clearly used the earlier version. (See post # 91 for pictures of the two versions).

Regarding the double bar - it looks different to other examples. Is it just a strap? On which film did you find it?

Andrew

Andrew, on the first film.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/31516-1940-battle-holland-belgium-france-videos-critical-past.html

Unfortunately, the resolution is not that high but I don't think that we'll find better.

 

Rich

Thanks. It looks like it is a double bar. I have a growing list of numbers with this double bar above, including 160 and 53. Dare I suggest it is worth a new thread and a new spreadsheet?

Andrew

 

An alternative theory for the double bar - What I think I am seeing is possibly one sign fixed on top of another; with no white bar at all - just sunlight picking out the top edges of the two signs
(runs away and takes cover)
Noel

 

Noel
Nothing wrong with a bit of lateral thinking. Let's see what other evidence can be found. To what unit, for example, was a K2 with that vehicle number assigned?

Andrew

 

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Rich

Looking at all the various 6x4s I think the AEC Marshall wheels are unique so that would confirm it.

I have a few pics of other 6x4s. They include bridging vehicles but no AoS numbers. I do, however, have an interesting one of a Guy FBAX Wireless No 3 on the beach at Dunkirk. It has the clear number 64 with bar below on it. I think there is also a picture of the same vehicle being loaded on a ship on the way to France before being given its AoS plate. Look closely at the camouflage patterns ...

As to what GHQ unit I just don't know.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41088&stc=1&d=1290439120

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41089&stc=1&d=1290439120

Andrew

It adds nothing to the thread (a little off topic thus) but here's another view of the same Guy:-

 

The subject of AOS and insignia for armour during this period probably deserves its own off-forum thread as the variation between units is considerable, and there is even variation within units as to which markings are used and where they are placed - it is certainly not as cut and dried as suggested by some text books...Nick

Nick, you do mean an on-forum thread, don't you ? It's not my area but it's all fascinating to see. Don't keep it to yourself...and poor old Von Poop is pining for tanks !

When I started this thread, I hadn't even thought about armour but simply needed somewhere to post all the AoS markings that couldn't be explained by the reference books.

Perhaps you should start a thread where we could post the odd eBay photos of BEF armour ? The clues might just be there.

Re-reading Roddy's post by the way, is it correct to say that 51st Division were using the 'HD' formation sign with the BEF and not the Stag's Head ?

 

Nick has posted a Matador (carrying '40' ?) on the Matador thread :-

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/31617-aec-matador-bef-first-picture-3.html#post353927

It ticks all the 1940 France & Flanders boxes for me.

I wonder which unit this was ?

 

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