BEF Vehicle Arm of Service Markings (GHQ and others)

Excellent succinct explanation Andrew, I think i've got it now , I wasn't that interested in markings but this thread has started me off
Just need to find out now what markings 4th battalion Green Howards , 150th brigade , 50th Divison had .My Uncles outfit.

Craig

 

JCB

If they followed a normal infantry division pattern it would have been 14 on a red background with a TT formation sign. 150th Brigade was the senior brigade in the division I believe and 4th Bn Green Howards was the second unit in that brigade.

However, if the division followed some other rules as a motor division then I don't know.

Andrew

 

Thanks for info Andrew ,
just realised i have sounded a bit of a fool here, but my 9-5 computer blocks out most pictures , so i have only just seen on home pc that Rolfis list included a colour picture of AOS signs !! hey ho

 

Craig

I must say I was surprised at your question but if you hadn't seen the picture it all makes sense. Perhaps they don't want you to look at BEF markings when you are at work?

Andrew

 

Craig

I must say I was surprised at your question but if you hadn't seen the picture it all makes sense. Perhaps they don't want you to look at BEF markings when you are at work?

Andrew

I can understand that. This thread is porn for Arm of Service marking enthusiasts. Top-shelf stuff !

 

Mind you don't wear out your 'Arm of Service'...

 

Mind you don't wear out your 'Arm of Service'...

There's really no answer to that !

Anyway, back to business.

Drew's link to 'Critical Past' has led me to this RASC ambulance at Boulogne



..wearing '157' and with that odd dark line through the white bar again. It's above so it should be a Corps marking but '157' is an impossibly high number. Was this a unique RASC system ? The other vehicles where it appears seem to be troop transport RASC.

 

Could it be a restraining strap for the plate? The holder doesn't look like the usual 'drop-in' type.

 

Maybe. Could RASC have developed their own quick-change system ? Their vehicles were certainly frequently moved between front-line units.

 

Been digging into this one:


Men of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers transport a French 25mm 34 SA anti-tank gun on the back of a Bedford MWD 15cwt truck at Dury, 14 January 1940.

The odd thing is that 1 R IR F were doing pioneer work around Fontaine until 20 Jan 40, after which they were able to resume unit training. Their move to 25 Bde was not until 4 May 40. 1/7 Queens also joined 25 Bde on 4 May.

25 Bde got around a bit:
5 Div: 4 May 40 - 9 May 40
50 Div: 9 May 40 - 18 May 40
3 Div: 18 May 40 - 19 May 40
50 Div: 19 May 40 - 21 May 40
46 Div: 21 May 40 - 26 May 40
2 Div: 26 May 40 - 31 May 40

2 Essex were supposed to join 25 Bde at the same time but remained as Corps Troops until they caught up with 25 Bde on 18 May. They mention the Bde A/Tk Coy, though I'm not sure how that was formed before the brigade came together. Of more relevance to the thread, Capt Sheffield recorded: "what corps or division we were in from then on I can't remember, but I got fed up with changing the vehicle signs every other day or so." It doesn't look good for us...

 

... that odd dark line through the white bar ...

Idle thought: could HQ L[ine] of C[ommunications] BEF have been considered a corps-level formation and had a distinctive bar in the absence of a formation sign? High-numbered RASC units could tally with L of C Troops?

 

The list of numbers was taken from the Division's war diary. The numbers are listed but not the background colours. Here's the relevant page...

 

Is that from the Div's GS file WO 167/262 ?

Cheers
Andy

 

The list of numbers was taken from the Division's war diary. The numbers are listed but not the background colours. Here's the relevant page...


That's a wonderful piece of evidence. What a shame that we don't have it for all divisions (and that it's not coloured, of course !).

It clearly has little in common with a standard infantry division and appears to differ from 50th Division of which it was nominally a duplicate as they evidently used '18' for the Motor-Cycle battalion rather than the '20' used here.

I can find no listing for the machine gun battalion in a standard division. I assume black background. Would it have been with a '1' ?

 

Good Morning All -

I have been following the lines ref the AoS/Veh numbering, especially that of a Lt Tk VIB with '118'...if I may I would like to throw my bit in as well.

First thing first, all numbering in the BEF will have been largely dominated by the 12 April 1940 instructions issued by the War Office (57/Overseas/273(SD.II) that can now be studied in the Nat Archives under (WO32/11617). This doc must be seen as the master instruction although of course, there were numerous deviations.

Second, I have found that you really need three pieces of info to really identify a vehicle - especially the armoured end of things (tanks & carriers). These are

A. The veh serial number (the so-called T. number).
B. The vehicle registration number (VRN) if it had one.
C. Any regimental or divisional insignia.

The April 1940 instruction stipulated that all Corps troops were to display a 2" horizontal white bar above the AoS number, with all GHQ troops to have a similar bar below the AoS. Unfortunately, the instruction did not cover the two Motor Divisions with the BEF (23 Northumbrian & 50 Tyne Tees). What does fall out of observation with these is that the M/C battalions of both probably sported an AoS 18.

Taking this a stage further, each AoS number would have been on a coloured background. In April 1940 these were:

Div Tps - Black
Lt Armd Bdes - Red
Hvy Armd Bde - Green
Div Arty - Red/Blue, divided horizontally
Div Engrs - Blue
Motor Bns - Brown
Div RASC - Red/Green divided diagonally

To further complicate the piece, 1st Armoured Div that arrived so late, sported its own numbering system alongside its 'Rhino' badge - more later.

Taking all of the above into consideration my best guesses for the armoured boys are as follows:

Div Cav Regts - carried '2' on Black (Tks & carriers)

- 1 Inf Div - 13/18 H - '2' with White Triangle
- 2 Inf Div - 4/7 RDG - '2' with Crossed Keys
- 3 Inf Div - 15/19 H - '2' with Red Triangle on Black Triangle
- 4 Inf Div - 5 INNIS DG - '2' with Red Roundel with upper left sectioned
- 48 Inf Div - 1 LBY - '2' with Blue Oval, Red Diamond & Parrot...then
- 51 Inf Div - 1 LBY - '2' with Blue Square, Red Circle & 'HD'

Also present:

- 1 F&FY - Thought to have used a stylised 'Elk's Head'
- ERY - Pt of 1st Armd Recce Bde - no insignia known at present

Wheeled Recce was as follows:

- 12 L - AoS 129 with bar below (Morris Armd Cars)
- 4 NF - Red & White pennant on hull sides (Daimler Sct Cars)

1st Army Tank Brigade:

Consisted of 4 & 7 RTR. Both sported AoS of '4' on Red with Bar Above

1st Armoured Division:

All vehs meant to have white Rhino with fol numbers:

- HQ 2 Armd Bde - '3' on Red
- Queen's Bays - '4' on Red
- 9 Lancers - '5' on Red
- 10 Hussars - '6' on Red

- HQ 3 Armd Bde - '7' on Green
- 2 RTR - '8' on Green
- 3 RTR - '9' on Green
- 5 RTR - '10' on Green

Quite often, these numbers were painted straight onto the veh with no coloured backing...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at '118' and the other carriers sporting '17'...

Carrier with AoS ‘17’, VRN ‘HMH 183’ & T.2630...

This AoS ‘17’ is a Divisional number (no bar). Numbers 17,18 & 19 were assigned to Bns of the div 2nd Inf Bde.

Lt Tk VIB AoS 118 (Bar below), VRNs HMC 647 & HMC 649, T.4294 & T.4296...

These two are more difficult...

Bar Below equates to GHQ Tps...
118 – not identified as yet

but by pure chance the Bovington Tank Museum holds a series of ledgers listing vehicle T Numbers and where they initially went to...for Lt Tks VIB T.4294 & T.4296 it states they went to the 1st Anti-Tank Bde...but this was likely in 1939. I suggest therefore that the vehs belonged to a GHQ Anti-Tank unit or poss an ad-hoc Recce unit, but I doubt the latter.

Hope all this helps. Someone out there must have come across further Corps & GHQ AoS lists...?


Roddy

 

I can find no listing for the machine gun battalion in a standard division. I assume black background. Would it have been with a '1' ?

Weren't MG Bns Corps troops at this stage of the game? Where's Andy's booklet when you need it...

And it's the wrong thread!!!

Very interesting list, though. No gunners - Joslen lists 124, 125 and A field regiments, the latter being made up from RA GHQ troops in May 40. He also notes that 9 NF was not a divisional unit, only under command for labour duties and training, despite having been with the div from formation.

 

Bovington Tank Museum holds a series of ledgers listing vehicle T Numbers and where they initially went to...for Lt Tks VIB T.4294 & T.4296 it states they went to the 1st Anti-Tank Bde...but this was likely in 1939. I suggest therefore that the vehs belonged to a GHQ Anti-Tank unit or poss an ad-hoc Recce unit, but I doubt the latter.

Hope all this helps. Someone out there must have come across further Corps & GHQ AoS lists...?


Roddy

Thanks for your most detailed comments Roddy. As non-armour person, I had certainly not thought of tracking the AFV's via their 'T' numbers.

If Pallud is correct in his caption and, by inference, the picture does show the Arras garrison withdrawing then the tanks are likely to be the ad-hoc 'Cook's Light Tanks' using equipment drawn from the Ordnance depot (which might explain why they are noted as originally supplied to an Anti-Tank brigade). The question remains of why they then displayed '118' and what does it signify.

An internet search has told me nothing more about Cook and his tanks.

The guesses at the infantry division vehicles were really just to try and support or deny the supposition as to which column was moving on the Béthune road.

 

Weren't MG Bns Corps troops at this stage of the game? Where's Andy's booklet when you need it...

And it's the wrong thread!!!

Very interesting list, though. No gunners - Joslen lists 124, 125 and A field regiments, the latter being made up from RA GHQ troops in May 40. He also notes that 9 NF was not a divisional unit, only under command for labour duties and training, despite having been with the div from formation.

Yes, you're right of course. I've ended up chasing my tail a bit on this thread (so it's good that some are still paying attention !)

This is probably the best thread for AoS markings which don't appear in the standard schedules and published works..

 

Several questions are consuming me at the moment:

1) Why would both units of 1 Army Tk Bde bear the same serial? 4 R Tks were definitely '4' as there is a picture of Dreadnought in Forty's Pictorial History. I haven't got anything to hand on 7 R Tks. Mind you, Andy has a couple of nice shots:





2) If they were Army troops, why did they display a Corps troops bar (top, not bottom)?

3) What was the Anti-Tank Brigade? Gunners?

 

Fascinating thread. I’d like to add something related to the AoS signs shown in the Béthune footage of 23rd May. If the vehicles are from 23 Division then 12 is the sign of 5 East Yorks, 17 is that 10 DLI. The Motor Divisions didn’t use exactly the same AoS markings as “regular” Infantry Divisions. Each seems to have devised their own system. Those units of 23 Division that went to France used...

1: Divisional HQ and Employment Platoon
5: HQ RE
6: 233 Field Coy
7: 507 Field Coy
8: 508 Field Park Coy
9: Div'l Sigs
10: HQ 69 Inf Bde
12: 5 E Yorks
13: 6 Green Howards
14: 7 Green Howards
15: HQ 70 Inf Bde
17: 10 DLI
18: 11 DLI
19: 12 DLI
20: 8 NF (shown on brown; could be black)
33: 9 NF (shown on brown; could be black)
24: Echelon Div Sup Coln
26: 136 Field Ambulance
31: 33 Field Hygiene Section
1: LAD
29: Provost
30: Div Postal Unit

23 Division proceeded overseas displaying only WD registration numbers, movement serials and unit signs; bridge classification discs and the divisional sign were to applied after the move. As the division was only in France for just over a month it may be that divisional signs were never applied.

I hope someone finds that useful.

RW

Rolfi

What you have posted here, gleaned from the war diaries, seems to me to be a significant piece of additional information about BEF markings. Thanks for sharing it with the rest of us!

You may have seen a few posts earlier here about the RASC colour flash on GHQ AoS plates (see posts #9 and 10). The early format of this colouring appears to be as follows:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42602&stc=1&d=1293367036 Early RASC Flash

and this is supported by a contemporary booklet about I Corps markings found at Kew to be seen here:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/85...arkings-7.html

However the later form of this RASC flash had the colours the other way around as here:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42603&stc=1&d=1293367045 Late RASC Flash

There is some limited photographic evidence that GHQ markings, where there is a white bar below, followed the later pattern of diagonal but all other photographic evidence that I have seen seems to confirm that RASC units at Divisional or Corps level followed the early pattern.

Do you think therefore that the background to your 23rd Division's 24 might have been the early version rather than the late version that you have portrayed?

Andrew