BEF losses (human) before the Dunkirk evacuation?

Discussion in '1940' started by spidge, May 25, 2007.

  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Should have been more specific.........Dunkirk, what if the Germans hadn't waited, and attacked and possibly cut off the route to Dunkirk, would consequent events turned out differently. How would the impact of losing the 350000+ BEF affected Britain.............

    Steve

    Okay Steve,

    I was wondering where the other "what if" came from.
     
  2. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Losses on the Lancastria (approx 3-4000) would make up about 30+% of those killed.

    These figures are only a guess or massaged as they have never been released officially. (with supporting paperwork - not due for release until 2040.

    The government of the day was afraid of the backlash from the assertion that the Lancastria Captain allowed over 6,000 troops on board while he should only have allowed no more than 3-4,000.

    i.e It is believed that over 6,000 were actually lost from Lancastria.

    I personally do not have a problem if the captain overloaded the ship as these were desperate times trying to get these troops home and the captain had already brought home troops from Norway crammed to the hilt.

    "The 2,477 survivors, including her captain, were picked up by HMS Havelock and other ships. The bomb which actually sank the Lancastria went straight down the funnel. The loss of the Lancastria was the fourth largest maritime disaster of the war. Captain Rudolf Sharpe later lost his life when the ship he commanded, the Laconia, was sunk. Under the Official Secrets Act, the report on the Lancastria cannot be published until the year 2040. If it is proved that Captain Sharpe ignored the Ministry of Defence instructions not to exceed the maximum loading capacity of 3000 persons, grounds for compensation claims could be enormous. (A remembrance service is held in June each year in the St Catharine Cree Church in Leadenhall Street, London)" The site of the sinking is now an official War Grave protected by The Protection of Military Remains Act of 1986.
     
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Chap on here citing an extra 3,267 MIA casualties for the BEF. Alongside Pallud's 'Blitkrieg' figure for deaths. With Kyt's Lancastria (and other naval/aerial?) losses we're perhaps getting nearer to that 11,000 figure. Strange that Pallud listed Missing for Germany seperately but not for the other nations.

    Now got to find where forum-bloke might have got his figure from...

    Casualty figures seem so easily distorted without some sort of temporal reference to when they were collated, or from where.

    If as suggested by some sources, there were 6,000 troops aboard Lancastria, it would increase the deaths and subsequently decrease "the missing".
     
  4. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    i.e It is believed that over 6,000 were actually lost from Lancastria.


    I decided to use the more conservative figures just as an example.

    However, it would be interesting to know whether earlier sources, for example, the HMSO reports, included these deaths, considering it was a secret for so long.
     
  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I decided to use the more conservative figures just as an example.

    However, it would be interesting to know whether earlier sources, for example, the HMSO reports, included these deaths, considering it was a secret for so long.

    And will be until 2040.

    The news of her loss was not made public in Britain until 26th July, 1940.
     
  6. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    This may be a little bit off the thread but…

    The ‘victory’ at Dunkirk strongly underscores the broad differences and abilities in wartime leadership in the United Kingdom and Germany. Churchill’s obvious realization that the battle was lost saved the 330,000+ from certain imprisonment, while Hitler demonstrated contempt for the average soldier (that he claimed to have a special affinity for) by forcing them stand their ground, even when it was obvious to all concerned that the men were in a hopeless situation. These bullheaded decisions by Herr Schicklgruber to hold all ground cost countless German soldiers their lives or freedom and ultimately hamstrung the German war effort.

    Churchill and his government knew that any war is won by the country that wins the last battle, a concept that Hitler never seemed to grasp, as demonstrated by his inability to see beyond the next hill. He squandered so many troops in pockets, holding all ground no matter what. Just think what a difference the roughly 500,000 troops lost at Stalingrad and Tunisia would have been in July 1944 on both side of the continent. Carry this thinking over to the other side by think how important the evacuated British troops were in 1944, when the British Army was disbanding units to keep others at fighting strength. How much more critical for the British forces would the manpower shortage have been without the Dunkirk survivors and the evacuees from Crete?

    Churchill and his government understood when to bid and when to fold their cards. Hitler never figured this out. He thought the bluff would always work and it did, for a while, until his enemies were being dealt better hands. But then, I don’t think Churchill was ever being bluffed, he just wasn’t sitting at the table until 1940.
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    LANCASTRIA
    Cunard White Star Line; 1922; W. Beardmore & Co.; 16,243
    tons; 552-8x70-4x38-8; 2,527n.h.p.; 16-5 knots; turbine
    engines.
    On June 17th, 1940, the liner Lancastria, Capt. J. Sharp, was lying
    off St. Nazaire taking on board British troops who were being
    evacuated from France. The embarkation began at 8 a.m. and
    continued until 4 p.m., by which time the liner was ready to weigh
    anchor. In addition to the soldiers there was a small party of about
    50 civilians, and their wives and children. As far as can be ascertained
    there were 5,310 persons on board, of whom 300 were crew.
    The first attack by aircraft came about 2 p.m., followed after a
    short interval by a second raid. In these attacks the Orient liner
    Oronsay, 20,000 tons, also engaged in the embarkation of troops,
    was hit and damaged, but still remained seaworthy.
    At about 4.30 p.m., in a third attack the ship was struck by a
    salvo of bombs, one of which passed right through the dining saloon
    and burst in the engine room. The damage to the Lancastria was
    vital and she took a heavy list, and although the boats were got out
    with all possible speed it was evident from the outset that there was no
    hope of rescue for thousands of those on board. Only two lifeboats
    managed to get away, the others capsizing owing to difficulties
    with the falls or through being overloaded. Tugs and other small
    craft were quickly on the scene and picked up hundreds of men in the
    water.
    The Lancastria remained afloat for barely 30 minutes, turning
    gradually over to port so that those still on board were able to
    walk upon her side as she lay. After floating on this position for
    some time she capsized completely and went down by the head.
    Meanwhile the German airmen occupied themselves by firing from
    their machine-guns at the men in the water, and by firing incendiary
    bullets which set fire to the oil floating on the surface.
    Of those on board 2,477 were saved^, including Capt. Sharp, who
    was picked up some hours later, and most of the civilian passengers.
    There was also a small number of people who came ashore singly or in
    very small parties, some of whom were captured and interned by the
    Germans.

    Lancastria-01.jpg
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just thinking about the numbers at Dunkirk.
    Well here just one of them.
    COL 291
    THE FALL OF FRANCE IN 1940: GERMAN OFFICIAL COLOUR PHOTOGRAPHS OF DUNKIRK IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE BRITISH EVACUATION
    German forces arrive in Dunkirk. The oil-covered body of a British soldier lies on the beach at Dunkirk at low tide after being washed ashore hours after the completion of the evacuation

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Roddoss72

    Roddoss72 Junior Member

    Whatever the cost it was one of the greatest victories that the western allies had and the biggest stuff up by Hitler.
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I can never quite take the description of Dunkirk as a Victory. Humiliating defeat at the hands of a hugely more successful enemy somewhat ameliorated by a substantial mistake that allowed a bulk of men to escape to fight another day, but not a real victory. It seems a bit like calling the German retreat from Normandy a victory for them as so many men got out.
    And yes, of course I appreciate the significance of the army's survival for the future shape of the war, the bravery of the ships that collected the men and the sheer scale of the evacuation's achievement. Despite that and contemporary and modern attempts to put a better spin on it, it was still a most dreadful disaster.
    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  11. Roddoss72

    Roddoss72 Junior Member

    I can never quite take the description of Dunkirk as a Victory. Humiliating defeat at the hands of a hugely more successful enemy somewhat ameliorated by a substantial mistake that allowed a bulk of men to escape to fight another day, but not a real victory. It seems a bit like calling the German retreat from Normandy a victory for them as so many men got out.
    And yes, of course I appreciate the significance of the army's survival for the future shape of the war, the bravery of the ships that collected the men and the sheer scale of the evacuation's achievement. Despite that and contemporary and modern attempts to put a better spin on it, it was still a most dreadful disaster.
    Cheers,
    Adam.

    It was a huge victory to the Western Allies inso far as the return to Britain of so many troops that were allowed to escape and fight again, instead of being captured and out of the war for the duration.:wow:
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I can never quite take the description of Dunkirk as a Victory. Humiliating defeat at the hands of a hugely more successful enemy somewhat ameliorated by a substantial mistake that allowed a bulk of men to escape to fight another day, but not a real victory. It seems a bit like calling the German retreat from Normandy a victory for them as so many men got out.
    And yes, of course I appreciate the significance of the army's survival for the future shape of the war, the bravery of the ships that collected the men and the sheer scale of the evacuation's achievement. Despite that and contemporary and modern attempts to put a better spin on it, it was still a most dreadful disaster.
    Cheers,
    Adam.

    I have to agree with Von Poop here that militarily is was a disastrous defeat that if effected as it should have been would have placed the allies at that time in a most unenviable position.

    The victory for the allies came in the worth of the humanitarian aspect and the propoganda coup that was milked for all it was worth.

    That is possibly the reason why only the Dunkirk evacuation was zeroed for acclaim. The amount rescued off the beaches by the Royal Navy, by the little boats was positive and boosted the british bulldog resistance that Churchill knew was going to be needed in the months and years to come.

    The amount of deaths and POW's, the the sinking of the Lancastria, the other 200,000+ extricated in the next few weeks during Operation Cycle & Ariel, the massive material losses on land, the Naval & Air Force losses, the sinking of 200 "Little Boats" were all overshadowed by the success of the Dunkirk evacuation.

    The British press presented the evacuation as a "Disaster Turned To Triumph" so successfully that Churchill had to remind the country, in a speech on June 4th that "we must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."

    From Wiki: Propoganda!

    "Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist." Source: Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion, 4th edition, 2006.

    Propaganda is a type of message aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people. Often, instead of impartially providing information, propaganda can be deliberately misleading, or use fallacies, which, while sometimes convincing, are not necessarily valid. Propaganda techniques include: patriotic flag-waving, glittering generalities, intentional vagueness, oversimplification of complex issues, rationalization, introducing unrelated red herring issues, using appealing, simple slogans, stereotyping, testimonials from authority figures or celebrities, unstated assumptions, and encouraging readers or viewers to "jump on the bandwagon" of a particular ideology.
     
  13. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    I can never quite take the description of Dunkirk as a Victory. Humiliating defeat at the hands of a hugely more successful enemy somewhat ameliorated by a substantial mistake that allowed a bulk of men to escape to fight another day, but not a real victory. It seems a bit like calling the German retreat from Normandy a victory for them as so many men got out.
    And yes, of course I appreciate the significance of the army's survival for the future shape of the war, the bravery of the ships that collected the men and the sheer scale of the evacuation's achievement. Despite that and contemporary and modern attempts to put a better spin on it, it was still a most dreadful disaster.
    Cheers,
    Adam.

    True, militarily lost the Battle of France but better to get away with 350,000 men to fight another day than be like the Germans and loose the Afrika Korps in Tunisia and the 6th and part of the 4th Panzer Army at Stalingrad.

    Cheers.
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    True, militarily lost the Battle of France but better to get away with 350,000 men to fight another day than be like the Germans and loose the Afrika Korps in Tunisia and the 6th and part of the 4th Panzer Army at Stalingrad.

    Cheers.
    So that means the Germans had a "Victory" in September '44 when 11th Armd Div failed to advance from Antwerp and cut off the Beveland Peninsular. That allowed 15th Army to escape over the Scheldt.

    As for evacuation of BEF, I still can't see how being kicked out of Europe and losing thousands of tons of equipment and heavy weapons counts as a Victory.
    Resounding defeat so my eyes.

    By the way more troops came off the Mole at Dunkirk harbour than off the beaches.
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    By the way more troops came off the Mole at Dunkirk harbour than off the beaches.

    Too true!

    Over all the hype about the little boats, only 20% were evacuated this way.
    (Before a yell and scream, this was a herculian effort and I am not knocking those heroes)
     
  16. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    Too true!

    Over all the hype about the little boats, only 20% were evacuated this way.
    (Before a yell and scream, this was a herculian effort and I am not knocking those heroes)

    I've had the aforementioned Dunkirk book sitting on my shelf for a while but haven't had a chance to read it yet (so I don't know exact details). But wouldn't it be fair to say that the use of the little boats was more than the evacuation of the soldiers back to British shores. If I remember rightly they were used initially as ferries to transfer men onto the RN ships when more and more of the dock facilities and quays were destroyed.

    The evacuation back to the UK via small boats only really started at the end stages of the week when the RN had lost a lot of their ships.

    Is that a fair summary or do I need to "bump up" the book on my to-read list before making a prat of myself with misinformation?
     
  17. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Agreed that the BEF were rescued but a victory, no. The fact was that the BEF failed in its attempt to help defend France and Belgium. No matter how many got away, the victory myth (and it is a myth) was hatched by a government desperate for any sort of optimistic news. That is not to denigrate any of the efforts by the Royal Navy, RAF and the Army to defend the Bridgehead.
     
  18. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I've had the aforementioned Dunkirk book sitting on my shelf for a while but haven't had a chance to read it yet (so I don't know exact details). But wouldn't it be fair to say that the use of the little boats was more than the evacuation of the soldiers back to British shores. If I remember rightly they were used initially as ferries to transfer men onto the RN ships when more and more of the dock facilities and quays were destroyed.


    You are correct. The 20% was the return of troops to England. There was no intention to demean their contribution to the ferrying of troops to the ships.

    The myth was that the percentage returned to Britain by the "Little Ships" was much higher.
     
  19. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    There was no intention to demean their contribution to the ferrying of troops to the ships.

    The myth was that the percentage returned to Britain by the "Little Ships" was much higher.

    No, I don't think anyone was.

    What I find interesting is the way that the propaganda was used as a way of instilling the sense that everyone was involved in the war effort. It made the country think that they (civilians) played a part in the operation. Psychologically this meant that "they" (the military) weren't a seperate entity that had let the country down. Quite different from the First World War where the military and the civilians had a gulf of experience between them .
     
  20. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    So that means the Germans had a "Victory" in September '44 when 11th Armd Div failed to advance from Antwerp and cut off the Beveland Peninsular. That allowed 15th Army to escape over the Scheldt.

    As for evacuation of BEF, I still can't see how being kicked out of Europe and losing thousands of tons of equipment and heavy weapons counts as a Victory.
    Resounding defeat so my eyes.

    By the way more troops came off the Mole at Dunkirk harbour than off the beaches.

    Nothing said about victory, If I were the commander of that sector I'd rather have people to put in the line than not. You have drawn your own conclusions about victory. I seem to recall saying After loosing the Battle of France...
     

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