BEF Casualties - 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by ramacal, Oct 11, 2011.

  1. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Reflecting on the initial poster by Ramacal, I cannot concur of his results. I know the UK army KIA in the Netherlands (10 May 1940 - 30 June 1940) for a fact and can assure the forum that those were no more than 11 men. I kindly refer to the inventory of those KIA to be found on Geallieerde gesneuvelden [Zuidfront Holland - Mei 1940] (bottom section).

    The Guards were the only British military involved in land battle (to some extend) in the entire campaign of May/June 1940. All other victims were of naval or airforce origin. No British landforces (e.g. army) were involved anywhere else. Hence a 52 men count cannot be right. Should it be washed up bodies, the number of 41 would be very high. I am not saying it is impossible, but since the pdf does not contain the 52 Dutch burried KIA I cannot cross-check the origin. I do however have my strong doubts on the no., as said.
     
  2. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    to have a definitive count and location for all the "unidentified but buried" BEF casualties.

    Having been to 100's upon 100's of cemetaries I would be of the belief that most killed on land have a grave even if unidentified
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Reflecting on the initial poster by Ramacal, I cannot concur of his results. I know the UK army KIA in the Netherlands (10 May 1940 - 30 June 1940) for a fact and can assure the forum that those were no more than 11 men. I kindly refer to the inventory of those KIA to be found on Geallieerde gesneuvelden [Zuidfront Holland - Mei 1940] (bottom section).

    The Guards were the only British military involved in land battle (to some extend) in the entire campaign of May/June 1940. All other victims were of naval or airforce origin. No British landforces (e.g. army) were involved anywhere else. Hence a 52 men count cannot be right. Should it be washed up bodies, the number of 41 would be very high. I am not saying it is impossible, but since the pdf does not contain the 52 Dutch burried KIA I cannot cross-check the origin. I do however have my strong doubts on the no., as said.

    The period covers 10th May to 30th June. Just because members of the BEF are buried in Holland it doesn't mean they were killed fighting in Holland inbetween the two dates given.

    The figures given by Rob are from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

    Cheers
     
  4. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    The period covers 10th May to 30th June. Just because members of the BEF are buried in Holland it doesn't mean they were killed fighting in Holland inbetween the two dates given.

    The figures given by Rob are from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
    Cheers

    I appreciate that Drew. I wonder however how members of the BEF got to get as far as the Netherlands when after 14 May 1940 the last army member left Dutch soil. I do however appreciate the chance of washed up bodies of British soldiers on our beaches, although it wouldn't make much sense to me. The Dunkirk-UK evacuation route was much to the south and one would expect currents to move away from the north rather than the other way round. But as I said, the pdf shows no Dutch sites, so I cannot cross check the references. I would gladly do so by the way, should it be desired.
     
  5. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    I did this purely as an exercise to get all of the details for Andy and I, when we occasionally get to visit France/Belgium to collect photos of BEF related memorials. Perhaps I should have left it at that rather than share my thoughts at what I thought might interest other Forum Members.

    If the information that I have gathered over 4 weeks of hard work, is likely to cause offense or dispute, then I would rather withdraw it and keep this information private.

    I should have added that my findings were e&oe.
     
  6. L J

    L J Senior Member

    As the National Archives were giving 48159 men of the BEF as MIA,and,on 1 may 1941,the Germans were giving 43026 British soldiers as POW(included those ofNorway and NA),a lot of the 48159 MIA had to be dead,or were returning,or were still MIA on 1 may 1941.
     
  7. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    I did this purely as an exercise to get all of the details for Andy and I, when we occasionally get to visit France/Belgium to collect photos of BEF related memorials. Perhaps I should have left it at that rather than share my thoughts at what I thought might interest other Forum Members.

    If the information that I have gathered over 4 weeks of hard work, is likely to cause offense or dispute, then I would rather withdraw it and keep this information private.

    I should have added that my findings were e&oe.

    Hello Rob,

    I thought your initial post was excellent and I am disappointed that you have removed it. For one thing, it got me thinking about my uncle again who is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial but has no known grave. I have more work to do there. It has also got some conversation going about certain aspects of the CWGC information e.g. the unknown burials, the numbers of KIA, burials in The Netherlands, but I don't read them as offensive.

    Many thanks for your initial post...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  8. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    Hello Rob,

    I thought your initial post was excellent and I am disappointed that you have removed it. For one thing, it got me thinking about my uncle again who is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial but has no known grave. I have more work to do there. It has also got some conversation going about certain aspects of the CWGC information e.g. the unknown burials, the numbers of KIA, burials in The Netherlands, but I don't read them as offensive.

    Many thanks for your initial post...

    Best,

    Steve.

    I entirely concur of this assessment by Steve Mac. Let's face it, research should not lead to axioma until there is reason for that. I publish all the time to get criticism. That gets me further. Moreover I have only reflected on the 52 KIA which were registered on Dutch soil. If you say that these 52 were CWGC substantiated, I appreciate that as I stated before. I do not feel responsible for you removing the original poster though. I think that you should put it back where it was.
     
  9. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Can only agree with everything Steve has said , it was very good of you Rob to share the info. I cannot imagine anyone being upset by this , quite the reverse IMHO , most relatives have a thirst for information.
    It's also very easy for people to unintentionally set the wrong tone with emails especially if English is not their first language.
    Craig
     
  10. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Gooseman's english is excellent and having a Dutch Mum, I actually like the forthright way in which they express themselves. You should have heard some of the things she asked previous girlfriends.:D

    I have inherited that particular characteristic and can be extremely blunt myself. I also have a thick skin and can take constructive criticism. If someone feels my research is flawed, I simply remove it. Job done and move on to something else.

    As stated, if someone wants a copy of the pdf, they can have it flaws and all. I will recheck it over time and compile a list of names in those cemeteries, but it will have to wait as I have somewhat neglected my RA Roll of Honour, my primary project. I am sticking to my estimate of circa 32,000 on that one, so contracdict me if you dare.:p
     
  11. Gooseman

    Gooseman Senior Member

    If someone feels my research is flawed, I simply remove it.

    It's more like having my doubts when it comes to CWGC information than that of dedicated researchers. ;)
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It's more like having my doubts when it comes to CWGC information than that of dedicated researchers. ;)

    So who do you think would be in these graves then?

    The British Army didn't invade Germany until 1944 or 1945 (Not my area) but there are BEF soldiers buried there from June 1940 - How would you account for those then or are they wrong to?
     
  13. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    This one intrigues me.

    Name: FRAME, ROBERT
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Corporal
    Regiment/Service: Gordon Highlanders
    Unit Text: 6th Bn.
    Age: 22
    Date of Death: 05/06/1941
    Service No: 3247891
    Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. R. Frame, of Dykehead, Shotts, Lanarkshire.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Row 3. Grave 144.
    Cemetery: MAASTRICHT GENERAL CEMETERY

    Checked the POW's on Ancestry and his name does not come up.
     
  14. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    And this one.

    Name: ONSLOW, THOMAS PHILIP RIOU
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Second Lieutenant
    Regiment/Service: King's Shropshire Light Infantry
    Unit Text: 1st Bn. Herefordshire Regt.
    Age: 24
    Date of Death: 06/07/1940
    Service No: 78366
    Additional information: Son of George Arthur and Charlotte Riou Onslow.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Row 3. Grave 133.
    Cemetery: MAASTRICHT GENERAL CEMETERY

    This man does not come up on Ancestry as a POW either.
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    From the 1 KSLI history, 20 May 1940(?), near Houppe
    During the morning Lt T.P.R. Onslow, the Battalion Liaoson Officer, had been sent by Brigade to meet the Baattalion to report progress but was never seen again. He was later reported to have been killed in action. The inaccuracy of the map probably caused him to lose his way and run into the enemy.

    The Roll of Honour adds that although he was listed as killed in France, he died whilst a prisoner of war in Holland.

    I assume he was a 1 HEREFORD officer attached to 1 KSLI as their parent regiment?

    Rob - your pdf was a very good bit of work that I neglected to save! Thanks for opening a very interesting new window on the campaign.
     
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    In looking for something on Cpl Frame, 2/Lt D A Innes of 5 GORDON was captured down on the Saar front on 13 May and died in Germany on 17 May, so efforts were clearly being made to evacuate wounded POWs which may explain a proportion of the Dutch burials?
     
  17. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    In looking for something on Cpl Frame, 2/Lt D A Innes of 5 GORDON was captured down on the Saar front on 13 May and died in Germany on 17 May, so efforts were clearly being made to evacuate wounded POWs which may explain a proportion of the Dutch burials?

    Hello Andrew
    attached from Bushey War Memorial
    regards
    Clive
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    In looking for something on Cpl Frame, 2/Lt D A Innes of 5 GORDON was captured down on the Saar front on 13 May and died in Germany on 17 May, so efforts were clearly being made to evacuate wounded POWs which may explain a proportion of the Dutch burials?

    The same happened to a Norfolks officer IIRC wounded of the Saar front in January (I think that was the Bn's tour), he was captured, died of wounds and is buried in Germany.
     
  19. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    I have now rechecked the casualties for the BEF and reinstated the first page of the thread.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks Rob, I appreciate the work that you're doing. I shall try to drop by on some of these:poppy:
     

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