BEF Artillery Markings

Phoenix2 has posted a couple of RA photos with geometric markings, and implies he knows the Battery...

Thanks. I found the post and he says his Grandfather was with 384th Battery of 142nd Field Regiment RA (Royal Devon Yeomanry) sometime between 1939 and 1941. Maybe there is something on the file about the markings. They can't all have memorised the documentation and then eaten it. Can they?

Andrew

 

Just found the same gun and scammell photo taken from the other side, nice german MG on cart in the background. Photo from my collection/book.

One more photo of the same truck. Photo from my collection.
Keith

 

One more photo of the same truck. Photo from my collection.
Keith

The back of the photo.
Keith

 

Hi Keith

Do you have any pictures of matadors with on it.

Thanks

Keith

Keith

 

Hi Keith,

I sent the wrong sign it should have been,but also if you have the other sign as well that would great

Thanks

Keith

 

One more photo of the same truck. Photo from my collection.
Keith

Keith

61 Med Regt in Westoutre again. What a clear picture.

Do you by any chance have any more with their circular door/ side tactical markings showing?

Andrew

 

One more photo of the same truck. Photo from my collection.
Keith

I am busy converting a 1/76 model 7.2" gun to the 6" howitzer (to go with my early Matador) and the excellent photo posted here shows a longer towing "tongue" attached to the end of the carriage above the spade. I think I have enough info to reproduce the tongue itself but having perused all the photos on this site there isn't a clear close-up of the mounting bracket which attaches the tongue to the carriage.....just enough to tempt me.
Before I go ahead with the info at hand, does anybody have or know of photos showing more clearly this bracket? I see a number of close-up photos showing the gun in the firing position with just a sort of towing eye but no tongue attachment. There is one showing a profile of one in firing position with the tongue and bracket but it is not a close-up.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Cheers,

Neil

 

Keith

61 Med Regt in Westoutre again. What a clear picture.

Do you by any chance have any more with their circular door/ side tactical markings showing?

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
All the photos that i have with tactical markings i have put on this site and no more mat signs only german signs when they used them.
Keith

 

I concur Rich. The shape of the fig leaf is different to what I had previously seen in published sources but I have confirmed this is the BEF version on a couple of other pictures.

Andrew

just thought i would put a better photo on here.
Keith

 

Two more photos arrived today, 1st photo shows some guns spiked and one has a white square on front sheld + Dunkirk . and last photo is the back of the 1st photo dated 28 8 40. They look new to me as the tyres look good. 2nd photo of british gun + ammo + SMLE. photos in my collection.
Keith

 

Two more photos arrived today, 1st photo shows some guns spiked and one has a white square on front sheld + Dunkirk . and last photo is the back of the 1st photo dated 28 8 40. They look new to me as the tyres look good. 2nd photo of british gun + ammo + SMLE. photos in my collection.
Keith

Keith

I was looking at the 25 pr picture on ebay as well. If you look closely behind the front row you can see the shields of four or five Mk Vp split trail 25 pounders.

Andrew

 

As a new arrival here I was amazed to see the information below reference the RNZA markings scheme and the addition of a third colour to the red/blue. Amazed because the same scheme was used as the background colours for the unit serials of 61 Inf Div RA in Northern Ireland in late 1941- for example 63 ATk Regt had serial 46 in white on a plate divided horizontally red/blue RHQ, red/blue/green 249 Bty, red/blue/yellow 250 Bty, red/blue/light blue 251 Bty and red/blue/white 252 Bty. The same logic was appied to the three fd Regts RA of 61 Inf Div. I has assumed until today that this was a scheme dreamed up by HQRA 61 Inf Div (a formation known for its curious badges on BD), but clearly the RNZA came up with the idea first.


Some good stuff is being added to this post. Here are points to support what Rolfi has said.

By chance I picked up a book this weekend by Jeffrey Plowman - Armor Camouflage & Markings of the 2nd New Zealand Division - Part 1 Greece & North Africa, pub 2006. As Rolfi indicated, NZ markings (following British markings), may be a guide for the BEF so it may be interesting to relate here what it shows:

The last page shows graphics of the tactical artillery markings for 4, 5 and 6 Field Regiments. Each regt has one shape: 4 - square, 5 - rectangle, 6 - triangle. Within each regt three batteries are shown and no HQ. For each battery the relevant shape is divided into three horizontal bands. The top two bands are always coloured red (top) and dark blue (middle). The bottom band colour is varied according to the battery - green for the senior battery, yellow for the middle battery and light blue for the junior battery. All this ties in with what Rolfi has shown.

Plowman also points out that before May 1941 there were only two batteries in a regt and each battery had three troops - first battery: troops A, B and C and second battery: troops D, E and F.

The book also shows the letters and numbers used for vehicles within a single battery. It shows tractors in the first troop marked A1, A2, A3, A4 for gun towing and AA and AB for the two towing only ammunition limbers. The second troop are B1 etc. This helps explain some of the number and letter markings we have seen.

Also shown (Keith and Rich) is M1 - as the first of five trucks in the Field Regiment's signals section.

Andrew

 

As a new arrival here I was amazed to see the information below reference the RNZA markings scheme and the addition of a third colour to the red/blue. Amazed because the same scheme was used as the background colours for the unit serials of 61 Inf Div RA in Northern Ireland in late 1941- for example 63 ATk Regt had serial 46 in white on a plate divided horizontally red/blue RHQ, red/blue/green 249 Bty, red/blue/yellow 250 Bty, red/blue/light blue 251 Bty and red/blue/white 252 Bty. The same logic was appied to the three fd Regts RA of 61 Inf Div. I has assumed until today that this was a scheme dreamed up by HQRA 61 Inf Div (a formation known for its curious badges on BD), but clearly the RNZA came up with the idea first.

That's very helpful as it is a second source of a sequence of colours - nothing for HQ, then green, yellow, light blue, white in order of seniority. Something like this was used by the BEF in 1939/40. I wish I could find some documentary evidence from that time.

As a point of difference it sounds like your colours were applied to the background colours of the unit sign whereas the BEF shapes and colours were an additional 'tactical' sign - but the principle sounds the same. Do you have a written source?

Andrew

 

These colours were to be applied to the conventional rectangular plate (or painted rectangle) - thus combining unit and sub-unit recognition in a semi-coded manner. The source is a SECRET document BTNI.No.S/400/1(G) dated 13 Jan 1941 and subsequent amendments with the same reference.
The expansion of BTNI is British Troops Northern Ireland. The instruction covered Northern Ireland District (NID), 53 Inf Div, 61 Inf Div, 148 Indep Bde Gp and 71 Inf Bde.

 

Keith

I was looking at the 25 pr picture on ebay as well. If you look closely behind the front row you can see the shields of four or five Mk Vp split trail 25 pounders.

Andrew

Great pic. None of these look like 'real' 25 pdrs. They may well be 18/25 pdrs, or even 18 pdrs. I have difficulty in telling them apart!

Chris

 

These colours were to be applied to the conventional rectangular plate (or painted rectangle) - thus combining unit and sub-unit recognition in a semi-coded manner. The source is a SECRET document BTNI.No.S/400/1(G) dated 13 Jan 1941 and subsequent amendments with the same reference.
The expansion of BTNI is British Troops Northern Ireland. The instruction covered Northern Ireland District (NID), 53 Inf Div, 61 Inf Div, 148 Indep Bde Gp and 71 Inf Bde.

Thanks for sharing the detail. This is certainly unusual and it is good to add it to my 'file' on the subject. I wish I could spend a few weeks hunting at Kew for more.

Andrew

 

Great pic. None of these look like 'real' 25 pdrs. They may well be 18/25 pdrs, or even 18 pdrs. I have difficulty in telling them apart!

Chris

Chris

I think they are 18/25 pounders or, officially, QF 25Pr Mark 1 on Mark IVP carriage (in front) and QF 25Pr Mark 1 on Mark VP carriage for the hidden ones at the back. There is also an 18 pounder Mk IIP in the picture on the old pole trail carriage. I believe this was the only type of 18 pounder in France and the others were all 18/25 pounders but I cannot lay my hands on anything which says so right now. I don't know what the visible differences between the 18 and 18/25 were. I would like to find out. I seem to recall there was some discussion about this on another forum some time ago.

Andrew

 

Chris

I think they are 18/25 pounders or, officially, QF 25Pr Mark 1 on Mark IVP carriage (in front) and QF 25Pr Mark 1 on Mark VP carriage for the hidden ones at the back. There is also an 18 pounder Mk IIP in the picture on the old pole trail carriage. I believe this was the only type of 18 pounder in France and the others were all 18/25 pounders but I cannot lay my hands on anything which says so right now. I don't know what the visible differences between the 18 and 18/25 were. I would like to find out. I seem to recall there was some discussion about this on another forum some time ago.

Andrew

I see what you mean, Andrew. The 18 pdr would be a Martin-Parry conversion that I hadn't noticed before (and it doesn't look spiked). Nice pic, isn't it!

Chris

 

Hi guys

Slightly off thread, but this CMP 8cwt from the desert campaign appears to show that the geometric artillery markings were not restricted to the BEF. Pic pinched off the MLU forum, but date and details not known by the guy who posted it.

Chris

 

Hi guys

Slightly off thread, but this CMP 8cwt from the desert campaign appears to show that the geometric artillery markings were not restricted to the BEF. Pic pinched off the MLU forum, but date and details not known by the guy who posted it.

Chris



Chris

Anything which gives context, even if it is outside the period or theatre can be very relevant so is not off topic.

This picture is extremely useful as South African and New Zealand forces both used geometric artillery markings. Although I have not yet found a copy of a document, Jeffrey Plowman has written about them in New Zealand use and a set of decals has been produced showing various South African ones.

It would be good to know the nationality of this unit. Did South Africans have CMP vehicles? I know they had short shorts!

Andrew