Bedfordshire& Hertfordshire regiment

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Megs, May 31, 2007.

  1. Megs

    Megs Junior Member

    hello
    please can anyone help me with this ?
    i have found a death on the cwcg site for a Thomas Laidlaw who died 26th june 1944 and is commerated in sunnyside St Michael churchyard Berkhampstead .
    I have no real idea as to where he died but from googling think that it might be Italy as i think the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire regiment was in operation there during the june of 1944 can anyone on here confirm this for me ,unfortunatly the regimental museum appears to be closed till the 5th .
    kind regards
    megs
     
  2. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    It looks like he is actually buried at Sunnyside (which implies that he did not die overseas).
    Casualty

    There's a picture of his grave stone here:
    Roll of Honour - Hertfordshire - Sunnyside, Berkhamstead

    Sorry, forgot to mention that the 30th Battalion was in Italy. I'm sure one of the Italy experts can fill in more of the details.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2019
  3. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Pretty sure that the 30th Bn Beds & Herts did not serve outside of the UK, and given his age it is unlikely he would serve overseas anyway. I suspect you will find he was in a Home Guard unit. I will check the Bn details in Joslin and post again tomorrow.
     
  4. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    30 Battalion The Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment
    <table class="DataGrid" id="datUtr" style="border: 2px solid black; border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellspacing="0"><caption> Unit Theatre </caption><tbody><tr class="DataGridRow" style="background-color: Olive; text-decoration: underline;"> <th scope="col">From</th><th scope="col">To</th><th scope="col">Type</th><th scope="col">Notes</th> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed;"> <td style="width: 13%;">24-Dec-1941</td><td style="width: 13%;">31-Jul-1943</td><td style="width: 25%;">United Kingdom</td><td style="width: 49%;">
    </td> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed; background-color: rgb(153, 153, 102);"> <td style="width: 13%;">25-Aug-1943</td><td style="width: 13%;">27-Jul-1944</td><td style="width: 25%;">Middle East</td><td style="width: 49%;">
    </td> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed;"> <td style="width: 13%;">08-Aug-1944</td><td style="width: 13%;">31-Aug-1945</td><td style="width: 25%;">Mediterranean</td><td style="width: 49%;">Italy
    </td></tr></tbody></table>


    <table class="DataGrid" id="datSup" style="border: 2px solid black; border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellspacing="0"><caption> Unit Superiors </caption><tbody><tr class="DataGridRow" style="background-color: Olive; text-decoration: underline;"> <th scope="col">From</th><th scope="col">To</th><th scope="col">Superior</th><th scope="col">Nation</th><th scope="col">Notes</th> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed;"> <td style="width: 13%;">24-Dec-1941</td><td style="width: 13%;">31-Jul-1943 ?</td><td style="width: 39%;">GHQ Home Forces</td><td style="width: 15%;">British</td><td style="width: 20%;"> </td> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed; background-color: rgb(153, 153, 102);"> <td style="width: 13%;">25-Aug-1943</td><td style="width: 13%;">27-Jul-1944</td><td style="width: 39%;">42 Infantry Brigade</td><td style="width: 15%;">British</td><td style="width: 20%;"> </td> </tr><tr class="DataGridRow" style="color: DarkRed;"> <td style="width: 13%;">08-Aug-1944 ?</td><td style="width: 13%;">16-Dec-1944</td><td style="width: 39%;">HQ Allied Armies in Italy</td><td style="width: 15%;">British</td><td style="width: 20%;"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

    From Orders Of Battle
     
  5. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Hmm, unusual that such a high numbered battalion went overseas in WW2. It doesn't appear to have been a front line unit in that Brigade. Wonder what it was doing?
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Probably a Lines of Communications unit.
     
  7. Megs

    Megs Junior Member

    Hello KYT Paul & Owen
    thank you for replying to my message it is appreciated
    kind regards
    Megs
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  9. Megs

    Megs Junior Member

    Thanks Owen
    Megs
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Probably a Lines of Communications unit.

    Old thread I know, but clicking link in post #4, 42 Bde was...


    Brigade formed for Internal Security on Lines of Communication in North Africa. In November 1943, Brigade HQ was redesignated HQ 57 Infantry Division for deception purposes. Brigade was disbanded in July 1944.


    History and Commanders of 42 Infantry Brigade [British Commonwealth]

    Other Regiments in 42 Bde.
    History and Commanders of 42 Infantry Brigade [British Commonwealth]

    <TABLE class=DataGrid id=Sub_II style="BORDER-RIGHT: black 2px solid; BORDER-TOP: black 2px solid; BORDER-LEFT: black 2px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: black 2px solid; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 border=0><TBODY><TR class=DataGridRow style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: olive; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"><TH scope=col>From</TH><TH scope=col>To</TH><TH scope=col>Subordinate</TH><TH scope=col>Nation</TH><TH scope=col>Notes</TH></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">25-Aug-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">27-Jul-1944</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">30 The Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 20%"> </TD></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #999966"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">25-Aug-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">09-May-1944</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">30 The Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 20%"> </TD></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">25-Aug-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">30-Apr-1944</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">30 The Royal Northumberland Fusilers</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 20%"> </TD></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #999966"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">10-Oct-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">20-Oct-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">30 The Royal Norfolk Regiment</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 20%"> </TD></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">05-Nov-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">26-Dec-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">30 The Green Howards</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 20%"> </TD></TR><TR class=DataGridRow style="COLOR: darkred; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #999966"><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">05-Nov-1943</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 13%">18-Jun-1944</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 39%">31 The Suffolk Regiment</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 15%">British</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Megs -
    the 2nd battalion Beds & Herts served in 10th Brigade of the 4th British (mixed) Division in North Africa anongside 78th and 6th armoured divs - they went over to Italy around April of '44 and fought at the 4th battle at Cassino - May 11 -31st -
    it is entirely possible that your chap suffered a serious wound which sent him back home known as "blighty wound" - where - quite possibly he died from this wound and is buried in that cemetery.
    I know this as we were invlved in cleaning up their camp near Bone ( Annaba) i Algeria when they took off in the middle of the night for Italy - th 5th batt of th Black Watch were also in that Division and I lost two friends at Cassino with them
    Cheers
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Megs - further to my last post - that should read 6th batt Black Watch -if you were to read of the 4th battle of Cassino from May 11th/'44 - "Operation Diadem" - you will find that 4th Inf Div was tasked to cross the Rapido - enter the Liri valley - swing right beyond the Monastery line and meet the Polish Div coming down to Highway 6 after capturing the Monastery. This is where I suspect your friend took the "Blighty One"

    Meanwhile the bridging was bad and heavy casualties were suffered as they bumped into German 4th para regt - the 28th bde attack failed and 10 bde moved up but again the bridges were held up causing 78th Div to be late -however 10th Indian made better progress on the left - which allowed the 1st Canadians to come through a few days later - then the traffic jams started with 5th Canadian Tanks bumping into the 6th Armoured 's Tanks..... how we finally got through was a miracle !
     
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Tom,
    Laidlaw died in June in the UK , aged 41, his Bn never got to Italy until August '44.
    They were L of C Troops.

    CWGC :: Casualty Details
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I have not read the posts thoroughly but one of the stumbling blocks in doing research is that it would seem appropriate to assume that a UK burial is related to a death in UK service.However this is not always the case for casualities were sometimes transferred back to the UK if their case was severe and it was possible to return to the UK.

    I know of two cases where soldiers were serverely injuried and eventually they were transported back to the UK for specialist treatment, died here and are buried in their home town.

    One involves a friend's father of the Sherwood Foresters who was severely wounded in the Western Desert.Initially, he was transferred to South Africa and then brought back to UK where he died from his injuries.He is buried at Retford,Nottinghamshire.

    Another casualty who fell in company of a friend when serving in the 3rd Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment was severely injuried in NW Europe (Teutoburger Wald).He was brought back to the UK for hospitalisation and subsequently died.He was one of those very young men in the colours less than a year and is buried in his home town of Walsall.

    I think that from the invasion of Europe it became quite common to return seriouly injuried personnel back to the UK.
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Harry - agree 100% as it happened to me - I was on a hospital ship bound for the U.K. from Bari, Italy as I needed skin grafts - when the word came out that all battle casualties should be patched up as we were running out of manpower for the frontlines -Sept '44 - consequently a dozen or more of us were landed at Catania to be patched up and returned to fight again.
    Meanwhile some lucky sick base wallahs were given our cots for the trip home.
    The other hazard is not knowing a person's battalion -brigade et - leads to speculation etc.
     
  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Tom,
    Wasn't there an incident, I think it was during the Italian campaign where some British soldiers who were returned for front line duties after hospitalisation but were posted to different units than their parent one.It led to a little known British Army local "mutiny" when the soldiers refused to join the new units but wished to serve with their "pals".Good sense prevailed and a heavy hand was not used. It was resolved as far as possible with men, where possible, rejoined their original units.

    Perhaps you can expand on this.
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Harry -
    this was by no means solved amicably - you are referring of course to the "Salerno Mutiny" - which after an infamous "trial" in Phillipville, Algeria saw three "ringleader' sgts condemned to death and another 190 odd sentenced to 10 years hard labour each.
    It was only by chance that the Adutant-General - Gen.Adams was visiting Algeria - read the reposrt and had the sentences commuted - he then wrote to Monty saying that this was the worst case of British Army Justice he had ever encountered.
    It is a tragicically appalling tale and the culprits never did put their hands up and say -" WE were wrong ".. a total travesty of justice and can be read in the Book "Mutiny at Salerno" by Saul David - ISBN - 1- 85753-146-9.....a Royal pardon is long overdue !
    Sir Ludovic Kennedy had this to say - " Mr David makes a powerful plea for a pardon for all those involved.....until then the stain on the British Army's record will remian "

    The facts are that 10th Corps under Gen McCreery - landing at Salerno with 46 and 56th Divs - under US Gen. Mark Clark ( who else) called for reinforcements from their main depots at Bone in Algeria - somehow this was mis translated - a few fibs were covered up and 2000 men - ex 8th army of 50th and 51st Divs were sent instead - they refused to serve under an American General ! McCreery managed to sway 1800 to join his corps but the 200 dug their heels in - then the injustice took place !
    Cheers
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen et al -– <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    Interesting coincidence last night – re-reading the
    ”Mutiny at Salerno” as prompted by a question on the board – I came across this excerpt….<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    “ On arriving at the broken down settlement of Ouled Rahmoun, the men were detrained and marched a short distance to a huge tented compound surrounded by barbed wire. From their earlier experience it did not surprise them to learn that this was #209 Prisoner of war camp. As recently as August it had housed 10,000 German and Italian inmates, but had been evacuated on August 31<SUP>st</SUP> and had remained empty ever since.( Sept '43) At the gateway to the camp Captain Dallenger formally handed over the responsibility of guarding the prisoners to Lt Ted Everett of the 30<SUP>th</SUP> Battalion Beds and Herts regiment….<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    …….. the fact that the Beds and Herts had not seen any front line service, and had been in North Africa for barely a month……”<o:p></o:p>
    Cheers
     
  19. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Tom,
    Thanks for your informative answer to the Italian threatre of operations mutiny.I will endeavour to get hold of a copy of "Mutiny at Salerno".Once again,history is fine tuned by those in the area at the time or who served on the particular front.

    The only other mutiny of World War 2 that I am aware of is when the RAF mutinied in India at the end of the war in the Pacific against the slow pace of demobilisation when demobilisation was enacted from the UK. The verdict was that no action was taken against the "ringleaders" who initially raised the issue of the lack of pace of the release of men to civi-street.
     
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Harry -
    by that time of course 1945 - The Adjutant Gen. - Adams had made his views well known to F.M.Alanbrooke and the COS committee - so most were tip toeing past the "Mutiny" label - man management has improved since then - but seemingly feel apart at Didcot ?
    Cheers
     

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