Bedford? QLR identification

Discussion in 'Trux Discussion Area' started by Michel Sabarly, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian researcher

    Still, that does all tilt away from 4 Armoured Brigade and I'm sorry I brought it up. :) It didn't make a lot of sense for them to be loaded together...

    Come to think of it, it could possibly be ruled out based on what dates the units landed?
     
  2. Don't be sorry, I don't think 4 Armoured Brigade should be ruled out, because it started landing as early as 7 June. See the fine series of photos shot by Maj WHJ Sale on the NAM website, showing 3 CLY landing on KING RED:
    Online Collection | National Army Museum, London

    I haven't been able to find a single photo of any vehicle of 56 Inf Bde, so can't possibly say whether they had a white bar on their AoS flash or not.

    Michel
     
  3. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Michel,

    I am sorry that you did not see the posts with Trux Factsheets on various British Army vehicles especially since it was you who suggested that I should publish such information. You had a book in mind but not all ones wishes can be granted. Still the pure joy of finding a previously unsuspected source is perhaps worth waiting for. Nearly as good as the 'Eureka moment' when everything falls into place.

    The 15cwt is a CMP 4 X 4. All the features which distinguish Ford and Chevrolet from each other are found at the front of the vehicle and so not visible here. Most visible would be the badge and the pattern of the radiator grill.

    Mike
     
  4. Mike,

    Yes, the wait makes the joy even better!
    Thanks for the ID of the truck.
    I thought we now had more or less finished with this photo, but of course there are still many more questions.

    Could the vehicle just ahead of this truck be the "Car 2 Str 4x2" mentioned in the Landing Table?
    If so, this would mean that the truck is not replacing it but coming as an addition.
    Or is it a "Car 4 Str 4x4", like the one from 50 Div Sigs, supposed to be in the Tank Deck, which is the only other 'Car' (apart from the Jeeps) listed in the Table for LTIN 2917?

    Below is the annotated photo, revised to include the various findings (or doubts!) unearthed by the esteemed contributors to this thread, to whom I offer my thanks.
    p012562 - LST 21 (2917) - Notes v2 (lower res).jpg

    Michel
     
  5. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Michel,

    Not Car 2 seater or Car 4 seater but:

    Canadian Ford C11 Heavy Utility. 4 X 2. A militarised 1942 station wagon. The British Ford WOA2 Heavy Utility was similar but had a blunt nose.

    Trux made a C11 saloon, two versions of the C11 Utility as well as the saloon and utility versions of the WOA2. I have just got them out of the cupboard and by holding the model at the same angle as that in the photo it is a perfect match for the C11 Heavy Utility.

    PS.
    See Post 43 in the Trux Models thread. C11 Heavy Utility in the centre.

    Mike.
     
  6. Thanks a lot Mike!

    My (poor) excuse for calling it a 'Car' is that I haven't read all your Factsheets yet (but as you said it was in the Trux Models thread which I did read many times though...)

    In addition to your Aircraft Recognition degree you certainly deserve one for softkin vehicles recognition too.

    But I suspect they would require you to hand over your precious models as recog aids, so better not ask :lol:

    Link to the post you mentioned: Trux Models. 1990 to 2005.

    Michel
     
  7. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    Someone just restored a Ford C11
     

    Attached Files:

    • C11.jpg
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  8. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    The war diary of 522 Coy RASC (Inf Bde) (WO171/2481) confirms that 'elements of 346 Coy R.A.S.C.' were under command for D Day. In the 50th Division RASC Op Order for D Day Appx 'A' states that 346 Coy landed 6 3-ton GS on 1st tide and 36 on the 2nd tide. It might be pertinent that there is a note for the 1st tide vehicles stating that Pro M/Cs are loaded on Amn vehs.

    And, lo and behold, in that war diary there is a Craft Loading Sheet for Craft No. 2917 LST II which includes the two 50th Division lorries with serial number '70'.

    72dpi00001.jpg

    Now if someone could identify the vehicle type from the census number my cup would overflow...

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  9. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    Please keep your hands in full view!!!!!!!L
    L 170509 - 179508 Lorry 3 ton 4x2 Bedford (OY probably)
     
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  10. Tom,

    This Craft Loading Sheet is a pure gem, aptly crowned by the identification of the vehicles type by Trackfrower! I totally share your "elation". I only wish that all such Loading Sheets, which provide details beyond my wildest dreams (short of mugshots of the men and 5-view photos of the vehs!), had been kept safely by some centralised organisation for the generations to come, instead having been burnt as useless "piles of bumpf" right after the operation, or even worse, during archives moves from one place to another.

    May we interpret the numbers in column TACT NO. as Platoon Number/Vehicle Number? Or, because RASC Platoons were normally identified by Letters rather than Numbers, would that be Party Number/Veh Serial within the Party, "Parties" being some ad hoc repartition of the Company elements for the passage?

    Michel
     
  11. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    I cannot answer the latest questions but I have some observations.

    1. This thread has shown again what can be achieved by forum members each chipping in a little of their individual knowledge and skill.

    2. I think it was Arthur C Clark, scientist and science fiction writer (2001 etc), who said that the true creative part of an investigation is the formulating the question. Sooner or later someone will answer it. Thus Newton wondered why the apple fell on his head and Einstein pondered the relative speeds of the Vienna tram and its passengers.

    3. In the age of the sound bite, text and Twitter one has to admire Michel's sentence structure in post 30. A skilfully crafted sentence with many clauses and sub clauses. A dying art.

    Mike
     
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  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Again from W171/241 - 522 Coy RASC war diary for 1944 and to clarify that L171006 and L1730103 are from 522 Coy RASC, I found this loading schedule in the appendices to the June diary.

    So Unit Serial No '70' indicates 522 Coy rather than 346 Coy.

    72dpi00011.jpg

    Trackfrower,

    Thanks for the census number guidance. It is somewhat of a surprise to me that they are 4x2 3-ton as I had always thought that Infantry Brigade Coys RASC had 4x4 vehicles and even more surprising in that 1st tide lorries were all meant to be 4x4.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  13. I cannot but fully agree with points 1& 2 of Mike's latest post. The level of detail the participants in this thread have been able to find out is just stunning!
    As for point 3, I'm afraid that what Mike mercifully calls a dying art is simply the result of my enduring inability to think clearly and express myself in a concise way, instead of with long, convoluted and probably often obscure sentences. Maybe the legacy of reading too much French litterature as a kid, rather than watching an absent TV :unsure:. Thus, OK for 'dying', but not quite so sure about the 'art' part :D

    Back to this particular photo, thanks to its very high resolution, even more details can be extracted from it, doubtlessly opening new opportunities for further investigation.

    For example, on the Carrier to the right one can see a sign reading:
    OC
    A SQDN?
    OC A SQDN maybe.jpg

    About the two vehicles (or trailers?) loaded with chespale bundles, could they be the two 3 ton Tippers from 486 Tipper Coy in the Landing Table? There seems to be some kind of marking on the rear of the right one, or maybe it's just shadows of embossed steel?
    Tippers maybe.jpg

    One more question: the water (?) tank on the front left also seems to have some marking on it, reminiscent of the 79 Armd Div emblem. The Landing Table lists one 15cwt Water each from 61 Recce Regt (last in Tank Deck), plus one from 203 Fd Amb (3rd vehicle off Main Deck, which would fit nicely with its location on the deck), and one from 200 Fd AMb (21st veh off Main Deck).
    The only veh listed as belonging to 79 Armd Div is a 3 ton GS from 82 Aslt Sqn RE, clearly not that type of vehicle...
    Water tank.jpg

    Finally (for now), on another photo of LST 21 (TimeLife_image_5920405 from the LIFE Photo Collection on Google Arts & Culture, actually US Coast Guard photo # 2366, regrettably not in the history.navy.mil website), one can see a 3/4 front view of the foremost lorry to starboard (between the two dinghies and the Ack-ack gun):
    Lorry LST 21 RHF 100 - TimeLife_image_5920405.jpg

    Would that be another Bedford OY?
    The other lorries are too dark for recognition (I think).

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  14. Tom,

    Thanks for posting the Loading Schedule. Another superb document!

    The numbers tally with those of the Landing Table for 56 Inf Bde:
    346 Coy - 3x 3 ton GS in each of LTIN 2919 & 2920
    522 Coy - 3x 3 ton GS in each of LTIN 2916 to 2920

    The consensus (see for example Souchman's Home) used to be the following, "logical" sequence:
    70 = 346 Inf Bde Coy RASC
    71 = 508 Inf Bde Coy RASC
    73 = 522 Inf Bde Coy RASC
    72 = 524 Div Tps Coy RASC

    but it does indeed appear that 70 is for 522 Coy, not 346 Coy, therefore it is now unclear which Serial the other two Inf Bde Coys had. Anyone with the May 44 War Diary for 50 Div CRA (WO 171/517)?

    According to Hodges & Taylor, it "gives details of unit colours and serials of its own units and some of those under its command or in support of the D Day landings"?

    One last possibility is that three lorries of 346 Coy were loaded in LTIN 2917 in lieu of the same number from 522 Coy, but this seems a bit far fetched given the Embarkation Staff Officers' well deserved reputation for unflexibility... A last minute change in the loading plan also sounds unlikely, because one cannot really see any advantage in swapping lorries this way.

    About the lorries being 4x2 or 4x4, the Landing Tables for SWORD and JUNO usually specify it (and even sometimes mention the make!), but in the case of GOLD, only one is specified (3 ton GS 4x4 from 51 Mech Rec Sec RE, LTIN 2158), and all the others are simply 3 ton GS, so no help from that quarter.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  15. I think I have my answer in the comparison of the Craft Loading Sheet with the Loading Schedule as both posted by Tom. In 522 Coy platoons were numbered, not lettered, and "2/26" must therefore mean "26th vehicle (or lorry) of 2nd Platoon":
    Pl No.jpg
    The M/C from the Provost Company loaded in L-1710062 is quite visible under the tarp at the rear:
    MC Pro in L-1710062.jpg

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  16. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Michel,

    Brilliant stuff as always. I admire your detective work!

    I'll post up the Craft Loading Sheets and Landing Schedules in the RASC section. They are from 50th DIVISIONAL RASC OPERATION ORDER NO.1 dated 20 May 44 which is in 522 Coy's war diary.

    Hopefully they might be useful for other photo analysis!

    Regards

    Tom
     
  17. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi Michel,
    The CRA 50 Div WD has the following regarding Serial Numbers

    70 - 522 Inf Bde Coy RASC

    71 - 524 Div Tps Coy RASC

    72 - 508 Inf Bde Coy RASC

    73 - 346 Inf Bde Coy RASC

    Regards

    Danny
     
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    Sorry to drag the intellectual level down for a moment but that 'flame' disruptive pattern looks unusual. Can't recall seeing that before.
     
  19. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    Idler,

    There were variations in the 'Mickey Mouse' pattern. I am looking at D Day to Berlin by Terence Wise. This has the 'flame' pattern on Universal Carrier, Loyd and Sexton. Perhaps this pattern suits vehicles without tilts.

    Mike

    See my point 2 in Post 31 above. This rejects the notion of dragging the level down.
     
  20. Or perhaps the painter had never seen the famous cartoon and applied the "Mickey Mouse ear" pattern as best as he understood it. After all, real mice do have pointed ears, not round ones.

    Sorry to drag the intellectual level further down...

    Michel

    Edit: after checking numerous primary sources and period photographs, it appears that real mice did had rounded ears, so the only logical deduction is that the painter was not cartoon-illiterate but confused by paint fumes, and mixed up cartoons and Tom with Jerry. After all, cats do have pointed ears (or do they???)
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018

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