Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

......and what with my daughter about to give us our first grandchild it will be a bit difficult!

OK: all is forgiven ........you can go next year to get the grandchilds 1st Birthday present.........although might still be a little young to appreciate tanks . Good Luck and here's wishing you all well

 

Cheers Steve, we'll no doubt be going out sometime again in the new year.

 

Anyone know for certain what type of AP ammo was used to destroy F01? I think most (all?) of the refs on its destruction just refer to 'AP'. APDS was in very short supply and I have read that it was not even issued to 3 RTR/ 11 Armd Div. This would seem to be backed up in the chapter on Comet in my aged copy of AFV Vehs of the World Vol 3 where it lists Comet carrying 61 rds of APCBC and HE for the 77mm; ie no mention of APDS.

 

At a guess and judging by the size of the hole (fnar fnar) I'd say F01 has been knocked out by a APBC round! An APDS round would make a much smaller hole!

 

Gudgin's Armoured Firepower does list an APDS round for the 77mm and wwiiequipment.com has some production figures at the bottom of the page. Whether or when it reached the front remains a mystery.

 

Anyone know for certain what type of AP ammo was used to destroy F01? I think most (all?) of the refs on its destruction just refer to 'AP'. APDS was in very short supply and I have read that it was not even issued to 3 RTR/ 11 Armd Div. This would seem to be backed up in the chapter on Comet in my aged copy of AFV Vehs of the World Vol 3 where it lists Comet carrying 61 rds of APCBC and HE for the 77mm; ie no mention of APDS.

At a guess and judging by the size of the hole (fnar fnar) I'd say F01 has been knocked out by a APBC round! An APDS round would make a much smaller hole.:m4:


Does this help? Looks like you may both be correct for different reasons. The following are from the November 1945 edition of Chilwell Catalogue 62/779 'Handbook for the Comet 1' which does not mention sabot projectiles of any type.

 

Thanks all but I'm still not sure whether APDS was carried or not! However, putting the APDS question to one side I think the balance of probabilities (Chilwell doc and expert witness S54) would suggest that F01 was hit by an APCBC round.

 

As you guys know I'm not an expert but I've just spoken to someone who was and served with 23rd Hussars when they had Comet tanks in 1945. Reg is even pictured in a photo courtesy of the IWM collection where he is instructing other gunners on the ranges at Gravelines. His other claim to fame is that he knocked out two Panther tanks with one shot (believed to be a WWII 'record'!) earlier in the NWE campaign.

I asked Reg a simple question i.e. 'what type of AP shot did you use in the Comet?' His reply was ...'we just called it AP. We had just HE and AP'. When I asked him a supplementary question along the lines of did it include sabot etc, he repeated again that 'we just called it AP'.

 

AP. SchmAPy! I can understand Reg's indifference; who gives a damn as long as it whacks the opposition! On the balance of probabilities I still reckon it was APCBC.

 

Gents I thought I'd better share this with you, a short film from the German telivision company NDR. I haven't watched it all yet and believe it mainly covers the exploits of 7 Armd but I did spot one 'Raging Bull' on the back of a truck!

Als die Tommys in den Norden kamen | NDR.de - Fernsehen - Sendungen A - Z

Having now seen the whole film there isn't a great deal from 45, however at about 35 minutes in I believe the MiB (Men in Black) are from the 3rd!

 

Bill Close's son Mike has managed to get published a book by Bill that he found amongst his stuff:- Pen and Sword Books: Titles by Bill Close

 

68 years ago today!

Thanks to Diane's (dbf) recent excellent thread describing 11th Armoured Division 1945 tank casualties (see her thread post #45) we now know that Franzen's Tiger F01 did the following damage to Cpl Brindle's Comet T334921. Thankfully there were, on this particular occasion, no casualties on either side.....except the Comet!

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/46657-11th-armoured-division-tank-casualties-1945/?hl=%2B11+%2Bdivision+%2Btank

 

Hi Steven,

My father (Richard Payne), too, was in 3RTR in April 1945 (C Sqn).

He was driving Sgt Alan Duff's tank at point, into Husum on 8th April, when they were subject to a barrage of panzerfaust / shreck rockets, one of which killed Sgt Duff (Dad told me that it took his head off...).

Dad told me that he remained in the disabled tank, whilst the others baled out, smoking furiously, whilst further projectiles hit the vehicle, but he reckoned that the majority didn't detonate, thankfully for him.

4464400 Tpr F Wilkinson (Loader / Op, I believe) was badly injured in this action and subsequently DOW on 13th April, apparently in a field hospital in Winsen.

Apparently three tanks were brewed up in Husum, during the action to clear the village, along with heavy casualties to 4 KSLI, including 10 KIA

There is no record of these disabled tanks in the 11th Armoured Division Tank Casualties, 1945 - Page 2 - RAC & RTR

Disappointingly, there appears to be no mention of this action in 3RTR WD, excerpts of which I note that you have attached in previous posts.

The Husum action is mentioned in "Taming the Panzers" by Patrick Delaforce (prolific author) on p 235. A comment by my father was also included on p 205, about a previous action in Boom, Belgium.

The dates above are confirmed on the gravestones of the two crewmen, visited by self in April 2006, which my Father had expressed a wish to do, but was unable, due to his call to the Green Fields in May 2004.

My Father did have an image of himself and other crew members standing by a Tiger, that had received three rounds into the engine compartment - whether this was from his time on Sherman or Comet, I don't know.

Unfortunately, I do not know what happened to the image - he did send it in to the Tank Museum, to Col Forty, who I believe was compiling a book, but I have no idea what happened to it subsequently

I admire your persistence with your quest for the facts of the A Sqn engagement with the Tiger, a few days later (April 45) at the Aller.

I have ordered a copy of the IWM film of 3 RTR carrying out maintenance in Schwarmstedt, in April and look forward to review with interest as I don't know what happened to Dad and surviving (fit) crew, after Husum.

All the Best,

Tim Payne.

 

I've just come across a better pic of this Cromwell posted on 'Facebook' by the daughter of a guy who fought with 3RTR, you can make out the AOS no 50 which would make the Cromwell part of HQ 29th Armd Bde:-

 

Andy(?)
Any idea as to the name of the dad? Would be good if he has any recollection of that time even if not directly involved in this particular action.

The ultimate 'dream' of course would be to locate someone who was there!....ideally a member of John Langdons 1st Troop A Squadron 3RTR.

 

Twas' Fred Preston and he was in Recce Troop!

 

Are contact details available?. I'm not on Facebook! Please PM reply if appropriate.

 

Hi Tim

My family is from the next village down from Husum, Schessinghausen (which surrendered without a fight). In some farm houses in Husum you can still see where they burned during the fight.

Any info you have on this would be much appreciated.

All the best

Andreas

 

Andreas

Some details of the action in Husum and the surrounding areas are described in John Langdons book 'The Sharp End'. This is now out of print but I've got a copy. I can PM you extracts of you wish.

Langdons book describes the 'history' of 1st Troop 'A' Squadron 3RTR. Langdons own Comet tank was also knocked out in Husum. Sounds as though it was quite a fight.

Steve

 

I don't think he's with us anymore mate!