Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by SDP, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Hi John
    The guns were surely used for ordinary firing at ground targets...

    With the Prussians, everything was always tested and inspected in the greatest detail:
    Enclosed are the technical data for the 10.5-cm Flak and the roughly coparable ballistic firing data for the 8.8-cm Flak for ground target firing.(Erdschußtafel)
    AA1.jpg AA3.png AA2.png
    The further details were regulated in the
    Army Service Regulation 119/763:
    Erdschußtafel für die 8,8 cm Flak 18 mit 8,8 cm Sprgr. L/4,5 (Kz.) mit Zt.Z. S/30 oder A.Z. 23/28 und 8,8 cm Pzgr. mit Bd.Z. der 8,8 cm Pzgr.
    Luftwaffen Service Regulation Dv. 5503:
    Erdschußtafel für die 10,5 cm Flak 38 und 39
    I will spare you the excessive Luftwaffe service regulation 5502 :lol:
    (These are by-products of my book research: My co-author was a major in the artillery and also put me on to such peculiarities).
    regards
    Olli :ninja:
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021 at 12:03 AM
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  2. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    I'm so disappointed! Not!:rolleyes:

    There is no mention of the two Flak guns either in 3 RTR's WD or in the 4 KSLI account of the battalion's actions at this time/place. I therefore assume that the two guns were in depth of Kroepke and remained unseen to the British.

    The 3 RTR WD records at 1400 hrs on 13 Apr two Comets and an OP Comet being 'hit' and then at 1640 hrs an OP Comet being 'brewed by a Tiger'. This total of 4 is one tank additional to the known losses: BC H Battery 13 (HAC) RHA's Comet, an FOO's Comet and a Comet from 4 Troop A Squadron 3 RTR. I suspect that the 3 RTR WD has double-accounted the FOO/OP Comets. As the Comet in the photograph is on a road surface (presumably the Ostenholz road) I believe this is probably the FOO's Comet as we know that the BC and the FOO stuck to the road when following 4 KSLI's two-company attack. The presence of a C Squadron tank is logical as C Squadron were passed through A Squadron (bogged down on the moor) at 1630 hrs to support 4 KSLI. Following S54's suggestion in post #339, it would seem that the FOO was operating from a C Squadron tank. Perhaps his own had broken down.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM
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  3. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Steve,

    I don't think it is CLEOPATRA I think the name seems to start CUCA but cannot be 100% sure. Either way it is a new name to me.

    Cheers

    Kevin
     
  4. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I've seen the name Cleopatra quite recently but can't remember where! Grrrrrrrr......

    The local chap is checking with the Schwarmstedt archives so fingers crossed!
     
  5. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    Looks like CLEOPATRA to me, but could it be COPACABANA commanded by Sgt B Manilow?:D
     
  6. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    My take on the location of the Comet - see map.

    Some other observations:

    1. The photograph of the 10.5cm Flak was probably taken at the same time of year as those of F01 (patchy snow on the ground) - on reflection not really a very exciting observation!:whistle:
    2. The scrappies have had a go at F01 and the Comet - the final section of F01's barrel has been cut off and both drive sprockets and a number of road wheels are missing on the Comet.
    3. I don't know the location of the Bailey DT (double truss, triple storey bridge). Scenery doesn't look like Essel. Could it be Winsen? Photo taken in late 1950s given the look of the car hidden by the tree on the right of the photograph.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM
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  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    John
    the Bailey Bridge crossed the Leine between Mandelsloh and Helmstorf.
    (If by Bailey DT the construction on the photographs was meant)
    Google Maps

    Here is a contemporary description with a lot of local colour:
    3 bridges in Helstorf
    The first Leine bridge was commissioned on 5 May 1894 and was in use until it was blown up on 7 April 1945, i.e. for almost 51 years..The Leine was crossed by the English "Bailey Bridge" (also known as the Tommy Bridge) until 1961. This bridge consisted of individual steel segments that were put together and thus provided sufficient static strength. The roadway was made of sturdy wooden planks that also rattled properly. The roadway was single-lane, and whoever got to the bridge first was the "winner". To the side, there were walkways for pedestrians, covered with individual planks. You could see through the gaps between the boards to the line and crossing was not everyone's cup of tea; as children we were sometimes afraid.
    Before the bridge, behind Stünkel's barn, there was a right and a left bend, paved with blue basalt and heavily banked.
    Later, when I already had a VW Beetle, it was a test of courage to drive quickly through the two bends and when you then drove onto the bridge at 80 km/h, that was a sense of achievement. (In original: "Aha-Erlebnis")
    www.helstorf.de - Die Helstorfer Leinebrücke wird gesprengt
     
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  8. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    Thanks Olli.

    The Helstorf Bailey bridge was built by 612 and 13 Field Squadrons, with work starting at 1600 hours on 9 April and then continuing round the clock to get the bridge built as soon as possible for use by 11th Armoured Division. The original intention was for a Bailey pontoon bridge as this was much quicker to build, but there was a shortage of pontoon equipment as so many bridges of this type had been built.

    The construction make-up of Bailey bridges could be tuned to the width of the gap to be crossed and the maximum weight to be carried. In this instance the DT description meant ‘double truss, triple storey’, ie two trusses or panels stacked in three storeys. This produced a Class 40 bridge.
     
  9. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

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  10. S54

    S54 Junior Member

    The ‘Scrappies’ have left the Tiger’s rear turret bin in the ditch mind!
     
  11. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    Yes, a strange oversight. Perhaps waiting for us is another photo of F01 but with the bin no longer there.:)
     
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  12. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Judging by the number of photos of F01 that have surfaced in the last few years, I wouldn't be at all surprised :) There are bound to be more photos out there!......now, didn't Franzen settle in the area?....and didn't he visit the Munster Museum?.....just thinking - anybody got contacts?.....
     
  13. S54

    S54 Junior Member

    Given all the chat about ‘Scrappies’ l’ve often wondered if this piece of wartime detritus is still there!
     
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  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    You mean the gun barrel gate post? Would be good if it was :)
     
  15. S54

    S54 Junior Member

    l believe he had relatives in Kropke!
     
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  16. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    If my memory serves me well and if Saft was correct (always a gamble), after the war Franzen married the daughter of the owner of the Kroepke gasthaus and subsequently ran the establishment until his death. I’ve eaten lunch there after a battlefield tour but sadly I don’t recall any F01 memorabilia, although I do recall the menu sporting ‘Maybach schnitzel’ and ‘Sauerbraten 8,8’. ;)
     
  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Fraulein Freiling ?
     
  18. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

  19. JDKR

    JDKR Member Patron

    No sign of F01's rear bin when I was last there in 2015! DSC_1536.jpg
     
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