Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

I assert that he would have been pushed and I'm not sure what 'take on successfully means':

1. Langdon and his crew were dismounted from their Comet when F01 suddenly appeared, so at a serious time disadvantage at the outset.
2. Langdon's 77mm was loaded with an HE round as he had been involved in supporting an infantry wood-clearing action. This round had to be unloaded and replaced with an AP round (APDS probably) further exacerbating the time disadvantage.
3. 77mm could not penetrate the Tiger's frontal armour 100% of the time. Langdon knew this but still managed to engage F01 twice (both missed as subsequent photos of F01 show no strike marks). I interpret this as taking on F01 successfully.

As an aside, although not mentioned in Langdon's account (nor in my book as I have just thought of it!), I would imagine that the two discharge flashes of the 77mm were the key factors allowing Langdon and his Comet to escape being destroyed by F01. We know that Franzen, the commander of F01, was confused by the presence of Comets as this was the first time he had seen them and he believed he was facing flame-throwing tanks (ie Crocodiles). The flashes might well have confused him, buying time for Langdon to reverse smartly into the cover of the forest. All conjecture.

 

First off, this is a bit of a side-track for me as I was mostly looking at Operation Varsity when I came across a YouTube video on this engagement. I came across someone commenting (I thought rudely) about Langdon backing off, and a "discussion" started. I only know what I have seen on Wikipedia i.e. the QF 77mm would get through around 150mm at 250m range (50% chance), and the Tiger 1 had 100mm frontal armour so maybe he did have a decent chance of knocking it out. That being said if the Comet's first two shots had already missed perhaps it really was time to bug out!

 

You may like to also read through this - CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN COMET - The Tiger Collection or maybe your opponent could read it as well

I would guess no one will ever know what really happened so as JDKR says - its all conjecture

TD


Maybe post the link you refer of the 'someone' comments

 

Thank you, I will give it a read. My take home message for the moment is that Langdon did have a fair chance of knocking it out frontally, and had a go, but sensibly backed off when the shots missed. I will go and cause trouble somewhere else now as I have just stirred up another site where some were saying that there were no Comets in Korea, and I have a photo of one taken by my stepfather. Better than doing chores any day. Thanks again!

 

Tell them to google it
First hit states Comets in Korea
MH 31643. A Comet tank probably of "C" Squadron 7th Royal Tank Regiment moving toward the front line in Korea.

 

Always fascinated by the Comets/Korea thing - please post your stepfathers photo (either here or preferably via a Conversation with me or even start a new thread). Anything related to Comet photos has to be good!

 

My stepfather slipped up - it was a Cromwell not a Comet. Apparently there was a vigorous discussion about Comets in Korea amongst some veterans on ARRSE - I'm keeping clear!

Best wishes.

 

This is what my step father labelled as a Comet, but it is a Cromwell.

 

No problem. We all make mistakes.

 

Cromwell tank - Wikipedia
After the war, the Cromwell remained in British service, and saw service in the Korean War with the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars. Some tanks were captured by the Chinese and one tank was knocked out by a Centurion tank of the 8th Hussars.


Captured Cromwell tanks in the Korean War

 

John l was reading that bit last night and thought that must have taken some doing! For starters once the copper driving band has dug into the commencement of the rifling the loader would have to remove the rounds’ primer and use the extraction tool to get it out of the barrel! It would have been quicker to fire the HE at the Tiger, which would have 1. hopefully damaged the sights and 2. distracted the crew long enough for the Comet loader (Bill Bourne) to load an APDS round! Like you I wasn’t there and it must have been shear terror for the crew!

 

Good thinking. I have always been puzzled about the unload and then two AP shots at F01 and your explanation is entirely possible. In fact I think your explanation is what must have happened.

Given that I am pushed to remember what I did yesterday, John Langdon did extremely to remember this action in such detail. It would be very possible that in the confusion - and terror - he did not recall the first shot being the HE round.

 

I know which photo you’re on about but it has been captioned wrong and it is actually a Comet belonging to C Sqn 3RTR in Malaya! The Sqn was detached there from the Regt who were in Hong-Kong sometime between 1949-52! Just to put the record straight there were no Comets in Korea and C Sqn 7RTR were equipped with Churchill Crocodiles!

 

THE IWM needs updating THE KOREAN WAR 1950 - 1953

 

The only official document I know that deals with Comet vs T-34/85 and IS-2. But here it only talks about calculated values.
Admittedly a little off-topic, but gives a good overview of the potential armour penetrating power of the Comet.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a955919.pdf

 

It certainly does!

 

Is it possible that the round hadn't been fully driven home and breech still open in anticipation of just such a situation?

 

Yep possible but that would be classed as bad drills! Just imagine if some reason the gun was fully elevated and the round reversed out of the breech ring and fell on the turret floor, not sure if the round was fired electrically or percussion, more likely the latter. Just imagine the consequences if the primer was struck on hitting the turret floor!

 

Boooooooooommmmmmmmmmmm

Bit like a Tiger tank leaving a round in the gun with breech closed and waiting for the whole lot to gently cook........ :-(