Battle of Ortona

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Danila, Jan 1, 2010.

  1. Danila

    Danila Member

    Thanks Ramacal for the map references. It would be of great help.
    Just one thing the map ref. in the war diary was 31723 on 22nd december while you put 31823, I just want to make sure it was a typing mistake. Anyway, it seems that the nephew who is going to come in Italy to visit the battlefields of Cassino and also of course Ortona knew that his uncle was probably killed in the central square of San Leonardo while according to the map and also the war diary he was near San Leonardo but not exactly in the square....
    Thanks for all your help

    Danila
     
  2. Danila

    Danila Member

    Thanks to Ron and Tom for the advises. The new museum of Cassino "The Historiale" is very close to the train station in town but I am not sure If they have war maps....I must find out...Thanks Danila
     
  3. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Danila - Map ref 318123 is correct. One number is on the line of the page. I have edited my previous post and put extra detail from the text of the War Diary.

    I have also added the reference you mentioned (317123) and one I missed (311151)

    http://www.mapquest.com/mq/9-D0OKyvZKDldq Map Ref 311151 (Objective of A Coy on 22-12-43)

    http://www.mapquest.com/mq/8-HA7vLzWJNuyfHR3L Map Ref 317123 (Near San Leonardo) Top Left of page 2

    Hope these are of some help to you.

    Regards - Robert (Rob) whichever you prefer.

    Thanks Ramacal for the map references. It would be of great help.
    Just one thing the map ref. in the war diary was 31723 on 22nd december while you put 31823, I just want to make sure it was a typing mistake. Anyway, it seems that the nephew who is going to come in Italy to visit the battlefields of Cassino and also of course Ortona knew that his uncle was probably killed in the central square of San Leonardo while according to the map and also the war diary he was near San Leonardo but not exactly in the square....
    Thanks for all your help

    Danila
     
  4. Danila

    Danila Member

    Thank you Rob,

    All you information will be of great help.

    Danila
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danila -
    The station at Cassino has a history all of it's own - this was where the 28th Maori Bde of the New Zealand Division was badly beaten by some Panzers - later a Kiwi strolled up to a Tank crew from 16/5th Lancers and asked " why do you think we are called Kiwis " - no answer so he went on " we cannot see - we cannot fly and we are fast becoming extinct up here ".
    After the fighting moved on an old friend of mine - a recovered wounded Major Ernie Atkins RTR - was made Station Master - he hated the job and wanted back in his Tank !
    Cheers
     
  6. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danila

    Martin Sugarman, archivist to AJEX, has come up with the following:

    The researchers should contact Janet Rosen at the Canadian Jewish Congress in Montreal -google for contact details - which have a copy of the book "Canadian Jews at war" which will have an entry for him; also the Canadian National Archives will have his personal record usually with photo, which I think is partly on line and then you may have to pay a small fee for the rest of it


    Hope this helps

    Ron
     
  7. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  8. Danila

    Danila Member

    Thanks to Peter and Ron for the useful information. You are all just great!
    Ciao Danila
     
  9. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danila

    Niente !

    Ron
     
  10. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Danila

    Prego! Non c'è di che!

    Peter
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danilia -
    The seven Canadian Books of Remembrance i.e 1943- page 178 - can be acessed directly at the Veterans website of Veterans Affairs Canada - Anciens Combattants Canada - has a host of information about all matters of the Veterans of Canada...Battles of Agira - Ortona -Campobasso - Gustav/Hitler Line - Liri Valley - Gothic line -Winter on the Senio -River Savio - et al....

    OR as Descartes might have said -and as St.Thomas most certainly wrote - 'contra factum non argumentum est'.....

    Cheers
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danilia -

    Owing to the fact that this year celebrates the 65th Anniversary of the Italian campaign there will be official visits to Italy to have special ceremony's there - at Cassino - Ortona - and Coriano Ridge - near Riccione(Ritchie owe ney) cemetery where many of my friends and comrades are buried - you will be made welcome at thse ceremony's.
    Here are the details ....

    Tentative Public Schedule of Events - Veterans Affairs Canada

    Cheers
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danilia -
    MOST humble apologies - that was 2009 - not this year - mis read the date - getting on a bit you see - and that is a fact !

    Cheers
     
  14. Danila

    Danila Member

    Molto bene we can write in italian from now on. It would be molto più semplice per me:)

    grazie di tutto
    Ciao a presto
    Danila
     
  15. Danila

    Danila Member

    Scusa Tom
    I saw your last post on page 4 only now....

    Last year was 65th Anniversary of the liberation of Cassino and I have been there most of the days for the ceremonies starting from 17th May in the Polish Cemetery up to 24th May in the Commonwealth cemetery. Of course the 65th anniversary in Riccione and Rimini will be this year as the Second World War ended up there only in 1945 . I will certainly be in Cassino to assist the ceremonies.
    Last year I was with a group of Veterans from Canada and it has been a memorable experience. I learnt so much from them. Some of them came back only last year, after 65 years and generally they didn't recognize the locations. They all agree that Cassino and many of the towns around all flat, no vegetations nothing survived the war. I hope to meet you and comrades in that occasion. Grazie per tutte le informazioni a presto Danila
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danilia -
    You are so kind but I am afraid that my knowledge of the Italian language left me years ago - my last trip was in 2005 when I visited Coriano - just as the Monsoons started which curtailed my visits to the other six cemetery's in that area - there are some 5900 Canadians still in Italy in too many cemetery's - I was a bit lost as well as they have built an autostrada right through our Battleground there - haven't been back to Cassino but understand they moved the whole town to rebuild it ....a friend of mine was nearly involved in clearing the Monastery but the Abbot decided to have his Monks to it by hand and I shall dig out that story to send to you - another little bit of History of Montecassino...
    Cheers
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  18. Danila

    Danila Member

    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for sharing your memories with me. I think is very important to know the story directly by those who fought here for the liberation of our country. I was last years with 13 Canadians Veterans who fought here among which Father Greens, Scislowski and Rudy Deutsch.
    It is a pity you didn't come as during this trip many plaques have been dedicated to the Canadians soldiers who fought here. At Torrice Crossroads, at the town of Pontecorvo and in my hometown Frosinone. I have some pictures on my website if you are interested regarding the ceremonies. In Frosinone there was a plaque dedicated to Everett Simm, the only canadian soldier killed in Frosinone. His nephew was here for the ceremony I am in touch with him and I alwyas tell the history of Everett during my battlefield tour. It is important for me to know the stories directly by you, so thank you for . As I will pass on to the young generations and hopefully them to the following so that your sacrifice won't be forgotten. My hometown was liberated by the Canadians on 31st May 1944 and there are still many persons who are grateful to you. They won't ever forget you. My father was only 8 years old when the war ended and He always told me stories about the war and the terrible period. For my father generation the most important thing in life is food as they starved for months, a tough experience for everyone and most especially for the children.
    So thank you once again for your story and hope to hear more.
    Ciao a presto
    Danila
     
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Danilia -
    Thank you for preserving the tale of the clearing of the Monastery by the Monks of the day it's just another small part of the unwritten history of those days -

    so you met Stan Scislowski - glad to see he is still up and about - we have'nt been in touch for a while - have you read his book it is also a good history of those days - It's called " Not All Of Us Were Brave" - ISBN 1- 55002-298-9 - it's a good read. Stan was known to be a reckless souvenier hunter - or as they said in his Company of the Perth regiment - "There goes that sonofabitch Scislowski again - he's sure to get killed one of these days "....but he didn't for which his nine Grandchildren are thankful

    Your Father was right - we all heard the constant cries of "Mangiare - Biscotte" - one day might have been near Frosinone - there was a chap running after our Tank - so we stopped and he came up - and in the most Glasgow accent asked us for food for his six children - he had fought in the first war in Italy and stayed over and married a local girl - so we gave him all that we could spare and he went off delighted that his children could eat that day - Dreadful times for Italians...

    Surprised that only one Canadian was killed in Frosinone - this was the 5th Canadian Armoured Divisions sector and they had quite a battle betwen Ceprano and Frosinone where all met up with the new Panzer Mk V - Panther - it was quite the battle

    Here is another story from Stan on a visit to Cassino a few years ago .....

    Return to Cassino

    Cheers
     
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  20. Danila

    Danila Member

    Hi Tom,
    Yes I met Stan Scislowski and his son and of course I have his book "Non tutti eravamo coraggiosi". He was very nice, he told us some funny stories during his talk in Arnara and He has a of sense of houmor and I found him in excellent good health and fit. You tell about the truth of the war and yes I learnt from this trip that the Canadians arrived near Rome but they had the order to stop and wait. Even today the Veterans were upset about that order.
    I was hired from a Canadian Travel Agency from Vancouver to take care of this group. I was really impressed about the fact that each veteran had one soldier who took care of him and this soldier belonged to the same Regiment where the Veteran fought. The young soldiers were very thoughful and kind, they really took very good care of them and I didnt' have the impression was "just" a duty for them.
    The Veterans stayed in Cassino for 7 days and every day there was a ceremony to a different town. I visited all battlefields along the Highaway 6 (Via Casilina) including as I said POntecorvo, Roccasecca, the Melfa river Crossing, Ceprano, Arnara, Torrice and Frosinone.
    Liutenant Everett Simm from the Loyal Edmonton Regiment was killed in via della Repubblica in the upper town of Frosinone. When they arrived in Frosinone the Germans had left except for a few nazis, one of them while escaping from a bar in Via della Repubblica shot at him in the front. He was buried in a little garden and then later transferred to Cassino. I was so sorry to learn his history. Frosinone, like many hilltop towns of the area, has 2 levels. The medieval centre up on the hill and the modern town in the valley. The German's headquarter was in the Hotel Garibaldi (the hotel reopened a few years ago and of course it was completely destroyed, now rebuilt). The town of bombed from September 11 1943 until May 1944 (at least 80 air raids) and completely reduced to rubbles also because downtown there was as there is still today a military airport and this was taken by the Germans to send suppliers to Cassino.


    A local historial wrote a book about the history of the town during the war and then the liberations. Hundreds of civilians died and some stories of civilians killed and tortured by Germans are really awful.

    This a picture of Frosinone in the day of the liberation.

    [​IMG]



    Tom and what memories do you have of Italy and Italians during the war and where did you actually fight?


    Thanks for the page of Cassino written by Stan Schislowski

    Ciao a presto

    Danila
     

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