Battle Of Midway

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by GUMALANGI, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    heard and read many stories about the battle of midway,
    One thing still clinching me,.. is it possibly true, should IJN and USN was face to face on Naval combat during that time ,.. or perhap naval aerial combat, (lets not talked about IJN's Yamato present at that time as it was located distant away) ... IJN could be on the upper hand.
     
  2. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by GUMALANGI@Apr 19 2005, 07:25 PM
    heard and read many stories about the battle of midway,
    One thing still clinching me,.. is it possibly true, should IJN and USN was face to face on Naval combat during that time ,.. or perhap naval aerial combat, (lets not talked about IJN's Yamato present at that time as it was located distant away) ... IJN could be on the upper hand.
    [post=33318]Quoted post[/post]

    Japan had the larger forces
     
  3. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I would have to check to be 100% sure, but I think that at the time of Midway the IJN had six fleet carriers in total to the USN three in the theatre.

    It wasn't that Midway totally destroyed IJN air capability, but it was reduced below a point where operations like Pearl Harbor or the operation as planned at Miday were feasible. In other words, the IJN could no longer project force as before.

    At the time the USN also had limited capability, but had considerable numbers of new ships, notably carriers, planned or under construction.
     
  4. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    US Air Units

    Carriers:

    USS Yorktown (CV-5) Capt. Elliott Buckmaster
    CYAG Lt.Cdr. Oscar Pederson, USNA26
    VS-5 Lt. Wallace Clark Short, Jr. - 19 (17) SBD-3
    VF-3 Lt.Cdr. John Smith Thach - 27 (25) F4F-4
    VB-3 Lt.Cdr. Maxwell Franklin Leslie - 18 (17) SBD-3
    VT-3 Lt.Cdr. Lance Edward Massey - 15 (12) TBD-1

    USS Enterprise (CV-6) Capt. George Murray
    CEAG Lt.Cdr. Clarence Wade McClusky, Jr. - 1 (1) SBD-3
    VF-6 Lt. James Seton Gray, Jr. - 27 (27) F4F-4
    VS-6 Lt. Wilmer Earl Gallaher - 18 (18) SBD-3
    VB-6 Lt. Richard Halsey Best -18 (18) SBD-2, -3
    VT-6 Lt.Cdr. Eugene Elbert Lindsey -14 (14) TBD-1

    Hornet (CV-8) Capt. Marc Andrew Mitscher
    CHAG Cdr. Stanhope Cotton Ring -1 (1) SBD-3
    VF-8 Lt.Cdr. Samuel Gavid Mitchell -27 (27) F4F-4
    VS-8 Lt.Cdr. Walter Fred Rodee -16 (15) SBD-3
    VB-8 Lt.Cdr. Robert Ruffin Johnson -18 (18) SBD-3
    VT-8 Lt.Cdr. John Charles Waldron -15 (15) TBD-1

    At Midway Island:

    Sand Island Seaplane Base
    VP-23 Lt. James Robinson Ogden - 14 (13) PBY-5

    Eastern Island Airfield
    Naval Air Station Utility1 (1) J2F-2
    Consolidated Patrol Wing 2 Lt.Cdr. Robert Cecil Brixner (CO, VP-44)
    VP-44 Lt. Donald George Gumz - 8 (7) PBY-5A
    assigned from VP-246 (6) PBY-5A
    assigned from VP-513 (3) PBY-5A

    VT-8 Detachment Lt. Langdon Kellogg Fieberling - 6 TBF-1

    Marine Aircraft Group 22 Lt. Col. Ira L. Kimes
    VMF-221 Maj. Floyd Bruce Parks - 21 (20) F2A-3 and7 (6) F4F-3
    VMSB-241 Maj. Lofton Russell Henderson - 19 (18) SBD-2 and 21 (12) SB2U-3

    7th Army Air Force, Bomber Command MG Willis P. Hale
    349th BS(H) 1 (1) B-17D
    42nd BS(H)/11th BG(H) Lt.Col. Brooke E. Allen 5 (4) B-17E
    7th Air Force Bomber Command HQ1 (1) B-17E
    431st BS(H)/11th BG(H) Lt.Col. Walter C. Sweeny, Jr -7 (6) B-17E
    assigned from 31st BS(H)/5th BG(H) -2 (2) B-17E
    assigned from 72nd BS(H)/5th BG(H) -1 (1) B-17E

    Detachment, 18th RS(M)/22nd BG(M) 1st Lt. James P. Muri - 2 (2) B-26
    Detachment, 69th BS(M)/38th BG(M) Capt. James F. Collins, Jr. - 2 (2) B-26B


    Japanese Aircraft Carriers:

    CV Akagi (F) Capt. Aoki Taijiro
    Akagi Air Unit Cdr. Mitsuo Fuchida (Rated Observer) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane
    Kansen Buntai Lt. Itaya Shigeru (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters
    Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Chihaya Takehiro (Rated Observer) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers
    Kanko Buntai Lt.Cdr. Murata Shigeharu (Rated Aviator) 17 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes
    6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) Lt.Cdr. Kaneko Tadashi (Rated Aviator) 6 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters

    CV Kaga Capt. Jisaku Okada
    Kaga Air Unit Lt.Cdr. Kusumi (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane
    Kansen Buntai Lt. Sato Masao (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters
    Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Ogawa Sho-ichi (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers
    Kanko Buntai Lt. Kazuraki Masuhiko (Rated Aviator) 26 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes
    6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 9 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters
    Soryu Kanbaku Buntai (spares) 2 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers

    CV Hiryu (F) Capt. Kaku Tomeo
    Hiryu Air Unit Lt. Tomanga Jo-ichi (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane
    Kansen Buntai Lt. Mori Shigeru (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters
    Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Kobayashi Michio (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers
    Kanko Buntai Lt. Kikuchi Rokuro (Rated Aviator) 17 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes
    6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 3 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters

    CV Soryu Capt. Yanagimoto Ryusaku
    Soryu Air Unit Lt.Cdr. Egusa (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers
    Kansen Buntai Lt. Suganami Masaji (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters
    Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Ikeda Masatake (Rated Aviator) 15 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers
    1 Type 02 D4Y1-C reconnaissance plane (1 other lost)
    Kanko Buntai Lt. Abe Heijiro (Rated Observer) 18 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes
    6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 3 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters

    Japanese Invasion Group Carrier (not engaged):
    CVL Zuiho Capt. Obayashi
    Kansen Buntai Lt. Hidaka Moriyasu -12 Type 96 A5M4 carrier fighters
    Kanko Buntai Lt. Matsuo Kaji -12 Type 97 B5N1 carrier attack planes

    Japanese Invasion Group Seaplane Tenders (not engaged):
    CVS Chitose Capt. Furukawa Tamotsu
    Chitose Air Unit 7 Type 00 F1M2, 16 x Type 95 E8N2
    AV MS Kamikawa Maru Capt. Shinoda Tarohachi
    Kamikawa Maru Air Unit 4 Type 00 F1M2, 4 Type 00 E13A1, and 4 Type 95 E8N2


    This appeared in the thread about battle of Midway Aircraft.
     
  5. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I am sure thoughthat the Japanese had other carriers not involved in this battle, while the USN in effect committed its full available carrier force.

    The thing is that the IJN was unable to replace its losses as the war progressed.
     
  6. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    The IJN had the Shokaku and Zuikako which were the only modern, purpose-built carriers they did not commit to Midway. After the loss of the four at Midway, they had to rely largely on various conversions from merchant vessels for the rest of the war [e.g. Zuiho, Junyo]. The only exceptions were Taiho and Shinano: the latter was a conversion of a Yamato/Musashi sister which gobbled up huge resources to build and made the Titanic look long-lived.
    The USN had the Saratoga, Lexington's sister, which was in the Atlantic at the time. But the first of the Essex class were availble within weeks of Midway.
     
  7. RLeonard

    RLeonard Junior Member

    The USN had the Saratoga, Lexington's sister, which was in the Atlantic at the time.

    Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic. During the actual Battle of Midway she was on the way to Pearl Harbor, after clearing Point Loma on 1 June, with an ad-hoc air group made up VF-2 (Det.) with 14 F4F-4 and 1 F4F-7 under Lieut. Louis H. Bauer and VS-3 with 22 SBD-3 under Lieut Comdr Louis J. Kirn. CSAG was Lieut Comdr Harry D Felt (1 SBD-3). Also loaded aboard, but without crews were 4 more F4F-4, 43 SBD-3, and 14 TBF-1. Saratoga arrived at Pearl Harbor on 6 June and after shuffling some aircraft and personnel departed the next day to join up with Enterprise and Hornet just south of Midway. Aboard, under CSAG Felt (1 SBD), were VF-5 with 18 F4F-4 under Lieut Comdr Leroy C Simpler; VF-72 with 20 F4F-4 under Lieut Comdr Henry G Sanchez; VF-2 (Det.) still under Bauer and now with 9 F4F-4; Kirn’s VS-3, now with 25 SBD-3; VF-5 (Det.) with 10 SBD-3 under Lieut Comdr William O Burch, Jr.; VT-5 (Det) under Lieut Edwin B Parker with 5 TBD-1; and, finally, VT-8 (Det) with 10 TBF-1.

    In the Atlantic were USS Wasp (CV-7) and USS Ranger (CV-4).

    Regards,

    Rich
     
  8. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic.

    Ok I stand corrected! I remembered later that Wasp was supporting the British in the Med at about that time [and sunk there I believe?]

    Adrian
     
  9. RLeonard

    RLeonard Junior Member

    Wasp (Capt Forrest P Sherman) was hit by two torpedoes from Japanese submarine I-19 (Cdr Kinashi Takaichi) at about 1440 on 15 September 1942 while conducting flight operations about halfway between San Cristobal in the Solomons and Espirito Santo. Fires raged out of control and the ship was abandoned by 1600. USS Lansdowne (Lieut Comdr. W. R. Smedberg III) torpedoed the hulk and the ship sank at approximately 2100. 193 crewmen were killed and 366 wounded out of 2247.

    Rich
     
  10. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    Shokaku wasn't at Midway because she was under repair following damage at the Battle of Coral Sea. Zuikaku couldn't be used at Midway because of the heavy aircrew casualties that she'd suffered at Coral Sea. I once read a suggestion that Zuikaku could have been at Midway if Shokaku's surviving aircrew had been assigned to her but I can't produce figures to justify that claim.

    Japan also had several light fleet carriers in service at the time of Midway. Ryujo & Junyo were part of a diversionary attack on the Aleutian Islands, Hosho was with the main battlefleet & Zuiho with the invasion force. "Options of Command" by Col. Trevor N. Dupuy has Japan winning Midway by realising that its codes have been broken & by using the 4 light carriers along with the 4 fleet ones.

    Dupuy goes on to argue that a Japanese victory at Midway would just have postponed an Allied victory in the war by a few months as the USA then had 13 carriers nearing completion.

    See the following website for more information on the IJN & its ships.

    Nihon Kaigun
     
  11. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by adrian roberts@Apr 21 2005, 06:58 PM
    Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic.

    Ok I stand corrected! I remembered later that Wasp was supporting the British in the Med at about that time [and sunk there I believe?]

    Adrian
    [post=33369]Quoted post[/post]
    Wasp was sunk in the Pacific as noted above, but was in the Mediterranean for not one but two missions to deliver Spitfires to Malta. The first failed -- all the Spits were bombed to wreckage within a day after arriving, but the second one succeeded. Winston Churchill said, "Who said a Wasp couldn't sting twice?" Operations Bowery and Calendar, they were called. But I'm told Bowery might have been spelled Bowary. Don't know for sure. The British pilots on Wasp were delighted by the ice cream and Coa-Cola, but annoyed the wardroom was "dry.
     
  12. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Ths for the reply,.

    So it is win by number,.. i thought US might still win or at least a draw,.. by any reason,..

    Cheers

    Gumalangi
     
  13. Dpalme01

    Dpalme01 Member

    Its more the fact that the Americans were ready for the surprise so they turned it around and surprised the Japanese instead. Midway was not a battle of sheer force.

    As for the results, Morale was huge. I think that the Americans realized then that they could do something.

    You'll have to forgive me, I like these more abstract concepts.
     

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