heard and read many stories about the battle of midway, One thing still clinching me,.. is it possibly true, should IJN and USN was face to face on Naval combat during that time ,.. or perhap naval aerial combat, (lets not talked about IJN's Yamato present at that time as it was located distant away) ... IJN could be on the upper hand.
Originally posted by GUMALANGI@Apr 19 2005, 07:25 PM heard and read many stories about the battle of midway, One thing still clinching me,.. is it possibly true, should IJN and USN was face to face on Naval combat during that time ,.. or perhap naval aerial combat, (lets not talked about IJN's Yamato present at that time as it was located distant away) ... IJN could be on the upper hand. [post=33318]Quoted post[/post] Japan had the larger forces
I would have to check to be 100% sure, but I think that at the time of Midway the IJN had six fleet carriers in total to the USN three in the theatre. It wasn't that Midway totally destroyed IJN air capability, but it was reduced below a point where operations like Pearl Harbor or the operation as planned at Miday were feasible. In other words, the IJN could no longer project force as before. At the time the USN also had limited capability, but had considerable numbers of new ships, notably carriers, planned or under construction.
US Air Units Carriers: USS Yorktown (CV-5) Capt. Elliott Buckmaster CYAG Lt.Cdr. Oscar Pederson, USNA26 VS-5 Lt. Wallace Clark Short, Jr. - 19 (17) SBD-3 VF-3 Lt.Cdr. John Smith Thach - 27 (25) F4F-4 VB-3 Lt.Cdr. Maxwell Franklin Leslie - 18 (17) SBD-3 VT-3 Lt.Cdr. Lance Edward Massey - 15 (12) TBD-1 USS Enterprise (CV-6) Capt. George Murray CEAG Lt.Cdr. Clarence Wade McClusky, Jr. - 1 (1) SBD-3 VF-6 Lt. James Seton Gray, Jr. - 27 (27) F4F-4 VS-6 Lt. Wilmer Earl Gallaher - 18 (18) SBD-3 VB-6 Lt. Richard Halsey Best -18 (18) SBD-2, -3 VT-6 Lt.Cdr. Eugene Elbert Lindsey -14 (14) TBD-1 Hornet (CV-8) Capt. Marc Andrew Mitscher CHAG Cdr. Stanhope Cotton Ring -1 (1) SBD-3 VF-8 Lt.Cdr. Samuel Gavid Mitchell -27 (27) F4F-4 VS-8 Lt.Cdr. Walter Fred Rodee -16 (15) SBD-3 VB-8 Lt.Cdr. Robert Ruffin Johnson -18 (18) SBD-3 VT-8 Lt.Cdr. John Charles Waldron -15 (15) TBD-1 At Midway Island: Sand Island Seaplane Base VP-23 Lt. James Robinson Ogden - 14 (13) PBY-5 Eastern Island Airfield Naval Air Station Utility1 (1) J2F-2 Consolidated Patrol Wing 2 Lt.Cdr. Robert Cecil Brixner (CO, VP-44) VP-44 Lt. Donald George Gumz - 8 (7) PBY-5A assigned from VP-246 (6) PBY-5A assigned from VP-513 (3) PBY-5A VT-8 Detachment Lt. Langdon Kellogg Fieberling - 6 TBF-1 Marine Aircraft Group 22 Lt. Col. Ira L. Kimes VMF-221 Maj. Floyd Bruce Parks - 21 (20) F2A-3 and7 (6) F4F-3 VMSB-241 Maj. Lofton Russell Henderson - 19 (18) SBD-2 and 21 (12) SB2U-3 7th Army Air Force, Bomber Command MG Willis P. Hale 349th BS(H) 1 (1) B-17D 42nd BS(H)/11th BG(H) Lt.Col. Brooke E. Allen 5 (4) B-17E 7th Air Force Bomber Command HQ1 (1) B-17E 431st BS(H)/11th BG(H) Lt.Col. Walter C. Sweeny, Jr -7 (6) B-17E assigned from 31st BS(H)/5th BG(H) -2 (2) B-17E assigned from 72nd BS(H)/5th BG(H) -1 (1) B-17E Detachment, 18th RS(M)/22nd BG(M) 1st Lt. James P. Muri - 2 (2) B-26 Detachment, 69th BS(M)/38th BG(M) Capt. James F. Collins, Jr. - 2 (2) B-26B Japanese Aircraft Carriers: CV Akagi (F) Capt. Aoki Taijiro Akagi Air Unit Cdr. Mitsuo Fuchida (Rated Observer) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane Kansen Buntai Lt. Itaya Shigeru (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Chihaya Takehiro (Rated Observer) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers Kanko Buntai Lt.Cdr. Murata Shigeharu (Rated Aviator) 17 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes 6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) Lt.Cdr. Kaneko Tadashi (Rated Aviator) 6 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters CV Kaga Capt. Jisaku Okada Kaga Air Unit Lt.Cdr. Kusumi (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane Kansen Buntai Lt. Sato Masao (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Ogawa Sho-ichi (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers Kanko Buntai Lt. Kazuraki Masuhiko (Rated Aviator) 26 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes 6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 9 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Soryu Kanbaku Buntai (spares) 2 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers CV Hiryu (F) Capt. Kaku Tomeo Hiryu Air Unit Lt. Tomanga Jo-ichi (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack plane Kansen Buntai Lt. Mori Shigeru (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Kobayashi Michio (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers Kanko Buntai Lt. Kikuchi Rokuro (Rated Aviator) 17 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes 6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 3 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters CV Soryu Capt. Yanagimoto Ryusaku Soryu Air Unit Lt.Cdr. Egusa (Rated Aviator) 1 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers Kansen Buntai Lt. Suganami Masaji (Rated Aviator) 18 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Kanbaku Buntai Lt. Ikeda Masatake (Rated Aviator) 15 Type 99 D3A1 carrier bombers 1 Type 02 D4Y1-C reconnaissance plane (1 other lost) Kanko Buntai Lt. Abe Heijiro (Rated Observer) 18 Type 97 B5N2 carrier attack planes 6th Kokutai (for stationing at Midway) 3 Type 00 A6M2 carrier fighters Japanese Invasion Group Carrier (not engaged): CVL Zuiho Capt. Obayashi Kansen Buntai Lt. Hidaka Moriyasu -12 Type 96 A5M4 carrier fighters Kanko Buntai Lt. Matsuo Kaji -12 Type 97 B5N1 carrier attack planes Japanese Invasion Group Seaplane Tenders (not engaged): CVS Chitose Capt. Furukawa Tamotsu Chitose Air Unit 7 Type 00 F1M2, 16 x Type 95 E8N2 AV MS Kamikawa Maru Capt. Shinoda Tarohachi Kamikawa Maru Air Unit 4 Type 00 F1M2, 4 Type 00 E13A1, and 4 Type 95 E8N2 This appeared in the thread about battle of Midway Aircraft.
I am sure thoughthat the Japanese had other carriers not involved in this battle, while the USN in effect committed its full available carrier force. The thing is that the IJN was unable to replace its losses as the war progressed.
The IJN had the Shokaku and Zuikako which were the only modern, purpose-built carriers they did not commit to Midway. After the loss of the four at Midway, they had to rely largely on various conversions from merchant vessels for the rest of the war [e.g. Zuiho, Junyo]. The only exceptions were Taiho and Shinano: the latter was a conversion of a Yamato/Musashi sister which gobbled up huge resources to build and made the Titanic look long-lived. The USN had the Saratoga, Lexington's sister, which was in the Atlantic at the time. But the first of the Essex class were availble within weeks of Midway.
The USN had the Saratoga, Lexington's sister, which was in the Atlantic at the time. Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic. During the actual Battle of Midway she was on the way to Pearl Harbor, after clearing Point Loma on 1 June, with an ad-hoc air group made up VF-2 (Det.) with 14 F4F-4 and 1 F4F-7 under Lieut. Louis H. Bauer and VS-3 with 22 SBD-3 under Lieut Comdr Louis J. Kirn. CSAG was Lieut Comdr Harry D Felt (1 SBD-3). Also loaded aboard, but without crews were 4 more F4F-4, 43 SBD-3, and 14 TBF-1. Saratoga arrived at Pearl Harbor on 6 June and after shuffling some aircraft and personnel departed the next day to join up with Enterprise and Hornet just south of Midway. Aboard, under CSAG Felt (1 SBD), were VF-5 with 18 F4F-4 under Lieut Comdr Leroy C Simpler; VF-72 with 20 F4F-4 under Lieut Comdr Henry G Sanchez; VF-2 (Det.) still under Bauer and now with 9 F4F-4; Kirn’s VS-3, now with 25 SBD-3; VF-5 (Det.) with 10 SBD-3 under Lieut Comdr William O Burch, Jr.; VT-5 (Det) under Lieut Edwin B Parker with 5 TBD-1; and, finally, VT-8 (Det) with 10 TBF-1. In the Atlantic were USS Wasp (CV-7) and USS Ranger (CV-4). Regards, Rich
Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic. Ok I stand corrected! I remembered later that Wasp was supporting the British in the Med at about that time [and sunk there I believe?] Adrian
Wasp (Capt Forrest P Sherman) was hit by two torpedoes from Japanese submarine I-19 (Cdr Kinashi Takaichi) at about 1440 on 15 September 1942 while conducting flight operations about halfway between San Cristobal in the Solomons and Espirito Santo. Fires raged out of control and the ship was abandoned by 1600. USS Lansdowne (Lieut Comdr. W. R. Smedberg III) torpedoed the hulk and the ship sank at approximately 2100. 193 crewmen were killed and 366 wounded out of 2247. Rich
Shokaku wasn't at Midway because she was under repair following damage at the Battle of Coral Sea. Zuikaku couldn't be used at Midway because of the heavy aircrew casualties that she'd suffered at Coral Sea. I once read a suggestion that Zuikaku could have been at Midway if Shokaku's surviving aircrew had been assigned to her but I can't produce figures to justify that claim. Japan also had several light fleet carriers in service at the time of Midway. Ryujo & Junyo were part of a diversionary attack on the Aleutian Islands, Hosho was with the main battlefleet & Zuiho with the invasion force. "Options of Command" by Col. Trevor N. Dupuy has Japan winning Midway by realising that its codes have been broken & by using the 4 light carriers along with the 4 fleet ones. Dupuy goes on to argue that a Japanese victory at Midway would just have postponed an Allied victory in the war by a few months as the USA then had 13 carriers nearing completion. See the following website for more information on the IJN & its ships. Nihon Kaigun
Originally posted by adrian roberts@Apr 21 2005, 06:58 PM Saratoga (Capt. Dewitt C. Ramsey) was not in the Atlantic. Ok I stand corrected! I remembered later that Wasp was supporting the British in the Med at about that time [and sunk there I believe?] Adrian [post=33369]Quoted post[/post] Wasp was sunk in the Pacific as noted above, but was in the Mediterranean for not one but two missions to deliver Spitfires to Malta. The first failed -- all the Spits were bombed to wreckage within a day after arriving, but the second one succeeded. Winston Churchill said, "Who said a Wasp couldn't sting twice?" Operations Bowery and Calendar, they were called. But I'm told Bowery might have been spelled Bowary. Don't know for sure. The British pilots on Wasp were delighted by the ice cream and Coa-Cola, but annoyed the wardroom was "dry.
Ths for the reply,. So it is win by number,.. i thought US might still win or at least a draw,.. by any reason,.. Cheers Gumalangi
Its more the fact that the Americans were ready for the surprise so they turned it around and surprised the Japanese instead. Midway was not a battle of sheer force. As for the results, Morale was huge. I think that the Americans realized then that they could do something. You'll have to forgive me, I like these more abstract concepts.
