I've looked all over the place for images of Class 40 Bailey Rafts but without success.......help please!
Trux Thanks for reply from someone who is clearly a Bailey expert; much appreciated. A couple of quick questions if I may: Are those photos specifically of Class 40 Rafts? Could the Class 40 Raft be used to carry two tanks at a time, specifically Comets? Reason for my question is that my father's Comet troop (1st Troop, 'A' Squadron, 3RTR) were the first to be ferried over the River Aller (Germany) on 12th April 1945 and a contemporary account ('The Sharp End' by the Troop Commander Johnny Langdon) implies that it was two tanks at a time. I'm trying to sort out the 'fog-of-War' and have located a photo of the Bailey Bridge being constructed over the nearby blown Aller Bridge near the village of Essel but no photo (yet!) of the Bailey Raft used prior to completion of the Bailey Bridge.
I will do my best. As a model manufacturer I did produce a full range of bailey equipment, all long gone. I am remembering my research at the moment but can look it up if necessary. The photos are all of Class 40 rafts. The length of roadway at each end could vary with the site at which they were being used but the centre, weight bearing section, is the same. Class 40 means in general that it will take 40 tons. Two Comets I think would be well over the limit. There were heavier rafts in use but not using Bailey equipment. I do not know if these were used at the site you are interested in. Mike
Another Class 40 Bailey raft. This one on the Rhine and apparently struggling with only one Archer SP gun of half the weight of a Comet. Note this raft has one long and one short ramp section. Even the heavier Class 50/60 rafts would need ideal conditions to carry two tanks. Mike
Reason for my question is that my father's Comet troop (1st Troop, 'A' Squadron, 3RTR) were the first to be ferried over the River Aller (Germany) on 12th April 1945 and a contemporary account ('The Sharp End' by the Troop Commander Johnny Langdon) implies that it was two tanks at a time. I'm trying to sort out the 'fog-of-War' and have located a photo of the Bailey Bridge being constructed over the nearby blown Aller Bridge near the village of Essel but no photo (yet!) of the Bailey Raft used prior to completion of the Bailey Bridge. This photo of the Bailey bridge being constructed over the River Aller at Essel and what appears to be a photo of a Bailey Raft at the same location are in the book 'Krieg im der Heimat' by Ulrich Saft. The photo of the Bailey Raft is also in John Russell's excellent book 'No Triumphant Procession'. I've asked John if he remembers the IWM reference number but unfortunately he doesn't. Question: does anyone know the IWM reference numbers for the two photos? I've trawled the IWM website but so far without success.
Could the Class 40 Raft be used to carry two tanks at a time, specifically Comets? ...and a contemporary account ('The Sharp End' by the Troop Commander Johnny Langdon) implies that it was two tanks at a time...... I've checked Langdons book and it definitely mentions two tanks at a time ....."It was a slow business for, although the river was only forty yards wide, there was only one raft, this however was able to take two tanks at a time. 1 Troop was in the lead and I duly set off on the first crossing not, I might say, without a little apprehension. Sgt Elstobs tank accompanied mine on the crossing"...... Intriguing
... but unfortunately he doesn't. Steve, I'm not sure how good the IWM photo/film database is as the photo of the two M5 half-tracks being ferried is certainly one of theirs. I recently found in my attic some lists of photos that the IWM sent me years ago and I will have another look as it might be listed. wait out. John
We built some near Pegasus bridge..... Sapper There's a bit of a debate as to whether these could carry one or two tanks! The Comet had not been issued when you were at Pegasus Bridge, but would a Raft ever carry two tanks? Logic says 'yes' (by simply doubling up on everything, although I'm no expert) but the photographic evidence we've located to date suggests 'no'. Steve
Steve - ref two Comets on a Cl 40 ferry. I am seeing if I can track down someone who might know in the Royal Engineers. I am also trying to track down the 1944 pamphlet on Bailey bridging which might also give a clue. Of course the bottom line could well be that despite all info/doctrine/logic etc to the contrary, if the tactical situation so demands and the risk is deemed worth taking then I suppose you might stuff as many Comets as you could on the ferry! The rumblings of German tanks to the North might have presented just such a scenario. John
Can't find the pic using the IWM's new and 'improved' search. However, two M5s are rather lighter than two Comets. Also, there would be a problem balancing the load while the vehicles went on board I should think. BTW, My sapper mate was asked by the brass to load a Sherman onto an FBE Ferry (on the Po) against protestations from the engineers. When it sank the brass evaporated to leave the sappers to recover the tank. Lesson? A weight class is there for a reason.
Peter (alias Old Git) is a font of knowledge when it comes to Bailey Bridges. Pop him a Private Message and he may be of help. Regards Tom
From Joiner's One More River: there was a Class 50/60 Raft developed from 1943 specifically with a view to crossing the Rhine. It might be a contender as 1944 is given as its in-service date. This wasn't a Bailey derivative, but non-Sappers probably wouldn't know that. The RE diaries might have the answer. Edit: The RE history confirms they were used for the Rhine Crossing.
Peter (alias Old Git) is a font of knowledge when it comes to Bailey Bridges. Pop him a Private Message and he may be of help. Regards Tom Thanks Tom; will do.
Steve, Bingo! The photo ref is BU3435. John Thanks John. I've looked it up on the revamped IWM web site but it doesn't show so I guess this is another one of those (very many) images that have yet to be uploaded. What a shame; I will just have to visit the IWM again . I hope this photo is part of a series and. along with the shot of the Bailey Bridge itself in construction, includes a photo of a Raft complete with two Comets
Steve - have just re-read the Langdon account that I posted on the Comet/Fehrmann thread and unless I’m being particularly stupid (always a possibility) I can’t see any ref to two tks being ferried simultaneously... “It was decided to get tanks across as soon as possible so A Sqn moved up to the river bank and commenced crossing on rafts, the river at this point being about 40 yds wide. Meanwhile the Sappers were constructing a bridge at high speed. The whole Sqn were finally across by about 1100 hrs”. However, I notice that the account is not entitled ‘The Sharp End’ so it would seem he made two statements about the crossing. The rafting op was the responsibility of 612 Fd Sqn. I saw their war diary the other day and it states that two tps (1 and 3) started construction of a Cl40 Bailey raft at 2100 hrs on 11 Apr. The raft was complete and open for business at 0700 hrs on 12 Apr. The diary reports that 2 Tp took over the ferrying op at 0900 and continued ferrying tks, carriers and soft vehs across Aller all that day. Ferrying ceased at 2230 hrs. There was therefore only a single raft and no mention is made of what would have been a very dodgy op to double-up the tanks. However, what I believe scotches the ‘two tank’ suggestion is an excellent annex written by OC 2 Tp which stated: “It was found that the following loads could be carried comfortably still allowing movement of weight for landing ops on far bank: Tank & 1 light veh 4 carriers 4 15 cwts 8 jeeps (in pairs, side by side) 4 jeeps with trailers & 2 more without 2 3-tonners and 1 15 cwt or S car 2 half-tracks & a 15 cwt or S car” That besides, I have just checked the 3 RTR war diary. A Sqn started to cross at 0930 and by 1100 the diary reports that two tps were across in sp of 4 KSLI and Cdos respectively. So, in 90 mins they had got 6 tks across (assuming tps of 3 tks). Best case is therefore a 15 min round trip for the raft to get one tk across and return for the next. Each single crossing would therefore have to take approx 7-8 mins, which sounds reasonable with the Aller being some 35m wide at this point, with the raft averaging approx 5m per minute - which again sounds reasonable. However, those time and space calculations are theoretical and do not take into account Murphy’s Law (which, in my military experience is inevitable!), like a tank throwing a track at the worst possible time and location, and the implications this would have on the timings. So what? Well I think the rough calculations based on the known facts that six tks were on the right bank in 90 mins also shows that double-loading was very unlikely. If the six were on the right bank in, for instance, 45 mins then it would certainly begin to indicate that it had happened. QED? John PS Maths was never my strong suit so you might wish to check my calculations! PPS I wonder why did John Langdon thought tanks were doubled-loaded?
The class refers to the weight a raft can carry, just like the bailey bridges, so a class 40 would carry 40 tons. It largely relies on what you want, If you need to carry two tanks then build a raft capable of carrying the tonnage. This is not a "get out" it is a statementt hat the variety of bridges and rafts is almost endless, You build for what you want to do...Or depending on the conditions..It may not possible to always get what you want. For you have to consider the entry and departure to and from the rafts......rafts are not the best when the entry or leaving is a steep bank... We actually get a mention for completing a raft under fire....at Pegasus
