I saw a program on BBC I think, a couple of years ago. As I remember, Ike used Patton just before D-Day to strut around Kent, where all the cardboard tanks were, and other ingenious fake invasion gear, to throw the Germans off the scent. I seem to remember there was a Nazi agent working that was a double, who was reporting Pattons movements so that Berlin thought a) we were invading the short route b) that if Patton was wandering about inspecting, the invasion wasn't imminent - which of course it was. Any comments on that? Wish I had taken more notice of the title so that I could check it out
I saw a program on BBC I think, a couple of years ago. As I remember, Ike used Patton just before D-Day to strut around Kent, where all the cardboard tanks were, and other ingenious fake invasion gear, to throw the Germans off the scent. I seem to remember there was a Nazi agent working that was a double, who was reporting Pattons movements so that Berlin thought a) we were invading the short route b) that if Patton was wandering about inspecting, the invasion wasn't imminent - which of course it was. Any comments on that? Wish I had taken more notice of the title so that I could check it out That's correct Tommygunner. The deception plan was called Operation Fortitude and the double agent was a Spaniard called Juan Pujol, known as 'Garbo'. Patton was in command of the fictitious FUSAG - 1st US Army Group. Deception included appropriate radio traffic, dummy tanks, etc., Patton strutting his stuff and of course, 'Garbo' feeding the Germans 'Garbage'. Best, Steve.
I should have added that the programme you saw or maybe something similar, is often repeated on the Yesterday channel! Best, Steve.
Contunuing the theme, 'Patton continues his advance through Brittany.' I couldn't resist this, Jeff. Best, Steve. I get a red X to, what is this ment to be ?
You need to read the thread, Andy. Only having a joke about Patton in Brittany with Jeff; aka Slipdigit! Best, Steve.
I saw a program on BBC I think, a couple of years ago. As I remember, Ike used Patton just before D-Day to strut around Kent, where all the cardboard tanks were, and other ingenious fake invasion gear, to throw the Germans off the scent. I seem to remember there was a Nazi agent working that was a double, who was reporting Pattons movements so that Berlin thought a) we were invading the short route b) that if Patton was wandering about inspecting, the invasion wasn't imminent - which of course it was. Any comments on that? Wish I had taken more notice of the title so that I could check it out Actually Bletchley had already reported that the Germans knew that invasion plans had been completed and the invasion was therefore imminent. The purpose of Opn Fortitude `was to convince the enemy that it would be in the Pas de Calais area. It was fortunate that it worked as noted below. BBC - History - World Wars: D-Day: Beachhead About the author Duncan Anderson joined the War Studies Department at Sandhurst as a senior lecturer in 1987, and has been Head of Department since 1997. He has written several books on World War Two, and worked for the British Army and other NATO forces in Germany, both lecturing and conducting staff tours. ******************** Secrecy was absolutely crucial. To mislead the Germans, the British devised ingenious deception plans, notably Operation Fortitude. They deliberately transmitted and broadcast all the radio traffic generated by US forces in south-west England, and British and Canadian forces in south central England, from radio stations in Kent. Vast, fake army camps appeared around Maidstone and Canterbury, with thousands of partly concealed dummy tanks and aircraft. One of the Allies' most flamboyant generals, George Patton, toured the area. German agents 'turned' by MI5 leaked the news that the Allies' most powerful assault formation, US 3rd Army, was destined to assault the Pas de Calais. The deception worked. The Germans concentrated their most powerful formation, 15th Army, in the Pas de Calais. Normandy was held by the smaller, but still formidable 7th Army. Had 15th Army turned up on D-Day, the landings would probably have ended in disaster. Nevil
I get a red X to, what is this ment to be ? You need to read the thread, Andy. Only having a joke about Patton in Brittany with Jeff; aka Slipdigit! Best, Steve. Yeah, he got me all sulled up. Steve, I think the picture you posted is gone. Ahh, right - thanks Jeff. Now I know what Andy (and earlier Tom) meant; apologies Andy and Tom. I can still see the picture; no red cross... Jeff posted a picture of Charlie Brown, so on that theme and analogous to the Patton in Brittany theme I posted a picture of Peanuts with a long line of 'critters' following him; the caption being "It's the Pied Piper Charlie Brown". Thought it was funny at the time, but the joke is lost without the picture! Best, Steve.
Nevil I can see where you have given a great deal of thought to this debate and I would apologise if have taken any of your original statement out of context by mis quoting you. <SNIP> This is why I do not go along with Wiki - it doesn't deal in objective truth- close but half truths don't count... Cheers Hi Tom, As I have said elsewhere in this forum I don’t consider myself a historian of WW2. I have not read widely on the subject although recent reading of books related to parts of WW2 with which I was reasonably familiar, has jogged my memory and interest quite a bit. My previous postings on the subject of WW2 have been from my memory, however imperfect, and at the ripe old age of 91 I am unlikely to start a whole new academic study of the subject. That being so, I am reluctant to get into any discussions of the minutiae of the various campaigns and will be unlikely to rely on anything other than my memory or what is readily available on the web or similar. My purpose in my original posting was not to start a “second front” on the forum. I just found it somewhat irritating that some commanders in WW2 are assessed a sort of “hero worship” status while another, in this case Patton, is casually dismissed, if he is mentioned at all, as “the one who slapped a soldier.” The fact that he made a huge contribution to victory in Europe is apparently not enough. I am not thinking of Hollywood here…..just the facts, which are easily accessed. The facts are of course that the best commanders made mistakes on occasions and the worst were probably never as bad as reputed. It would be strange if this were not the case in the uncertainty of major warfare which tends to distort both. Nevil.
Nevil I can well appreciate your thinking at aged 91 as I am slowly heading to that level at 87 and also not an historian but having spent many years in studying the main reason as to why my education was interrupted in order to assist in sorting out the mess during 1939/45. My own objection to the actions of the subject was not his slapping of soldiers but rather his many cases of what looked to me as if he was avoiding conflict- in the theatres in which I was involved e.g his actions before Gabes in which his 88,000 force were mauled by the 10th panzer Div -which was returning from being mauled themselves by 8th Army at Medenine and so were at half strength - next was their attack down the coast road towards Bizerta which was claimed to be a glorious victory - when the real battle was being fought from Medjez to Tunis and Cap Bon - finally his avoidance of assistance in the real battle for Catania when he prevailed upon Alex to allow him to liberate Palermo- which no one needed and even his div Cmmdr Walker said afterwards " we had an easy stroll - Monty ? - he was fighting the Germans"- then came the slapping but by then we had made up our minds ! I therefore am not too knowledgeable on the NWE campaign but I recall that when he turned his forces towards Bastogne - the German 7th Army was not as concerned as when Horrocks lined up the banks of the Muese with his five divisions. Patton in my mind was never dismissed but many questions were raised about too many of his actions as being not quite as professional as we expected leaders to be- the same applied to Mark Clark - Collins - Hodges and a few more as well as all too many British Commanders at times - but what did we know - I was a schoolboy in uniform- but I have studied that part of that war at great length aligned with my own experience gives me - not an xenophonic but rather an all round view of much of what went on in those years - in the same way as I have studied the actions of the Church since Vatican II- and am prepared to state categorically that the popes since that time are completely wrong ! - but that has already cost me some alleged friends Cheers
