Assistance in tracing father in laws, aircrew father and uncle

Hi
I am tracing one Flying Officer (144635) Patrick T Green, from 107 Sqn. a mosquito pilot lost 5/7/44 along with his navigator Basil Lambert (F/O) on operations over France, The Sqn Record has him flying in May June 44 on operations over France based at RAF Lasham Hants. Where was he before this I believe he trained in Canada but have no idea of his service career prior to 107

His older brother Stanley Maurice Green, was lost on ops 31/5/42 a Warrant Officer with15 OTU as a n Observer / Nav in Wellington R1791, shot down returning from the first 1000 bomber raid by Lt Helmut Niklas from 6NJG1

As he was a W/O on an OTU can I assume he was there as an Instructor ? again have no info concerning his early career.

My Father in law has no knowledge of his father / uncle as he was killed when his son was 3 months old.

We are preparing a presentation for a birthday shortly as the son has often asked if his father could be researched

Any assistance appreciated

Thanks in anticipation Adrian

 

Hi Adrian

The first step we always advise in situations like this is to obtain his service records the link is - Request records of deceased service personnel

Then there are other avenues to follow, but these are best to be based on the records

Others I am sure will be along to beef out the details you have given

TD

 

Adrian,

Not too sure if you have this photo, but it is the headstone of Stanley Green.

Regards

Bruneval

 

Thank you, that's much appreciated will do , have applied for his medals, as we don't believe they have been claimed
Regards A

 

thank you yes I have, we also have a b/w photo of 3 wooden crosses with Un aviateur anglais 31.5.42 these appear to be 3 of the crew killed when the a/c exploded following sustained attack by Lt Helmut Niklas of 6NJG1. As documented in a book on Night Fighters of the Reich.
It appears the locals near Charleroi retrieved the bodies and buried them locally
appreciate your interest
Regards A

 

His service records should tell you what medals he was entitled to, but also no harm in contacting the Medal Office [they will check his service record before replying to you anyway]

TD

 

Hello and welcome - you'll best follow the advice to obtain Service Records.
According to this
two Mosquitoes from 107 were lost that night RAFCommands :: Old Forum Archive

Not sure who was in which aircraft
There's always the possibility they may have collided, with one travelling some distance, or they could be separate incidents.
it should be possible to obtain copies of the 107 Sqdn Operations Record Book (ORB) for that month to see if anything further can be found.
Grave photo here, if you haven't already got it or visited montgaroult
Someone has added a plaque and Find a Grave website shows "virtual" flower left by a Frenchman, might be local to the cemetery?

Can't trace any Gazette entry for promotion, there should be at least one when he became a commissioned officer, showing his previous noncom Service Number. Better minds than mine may find it.

There's no Additional Information so his Form wasn't returned by the family, but there is a Patrick T Green living in Ranelagh Mews, Fulham, office clerk in motor works in 1939 Register, born 30 Nov 1922. Seems to be several sharing a flat. From Stanley's info Son of John William and Ellen Green.

From that it seems his birth was registered as Patrick A T Green (you may know what the "A" stands for) 4th Qtr in Edmonton, London, mothers maiden name was Lynch.
Not so easy to find his elder brothers details, there is a Stanley Green born 4th Qtr 1918 in Kent (which would make him 23 in May 1942) but maiden name is Thwaites....

 

Recherche de France-Crashes 39-45

TD

 

This is great, thank you. I have a copy of the Operations record for 107 sqn, showing 4th July 44 the sqn is tasked with low level night ops over northern france around le mons, flying from Lasham. The report states OM-X F/O Green called on VHF stating engine fire and abandoning the A/C over enemy territory. his Nav was F/O Lambert. My father in law has some vague recollection of being told that his father volunteered for the mission, he didn't have to go, reviewing Sqn records for May/June/July this crew had participated in a large number of missions
all much appreciated as it is confirming weeks and weeks of work.... why didn't I come here first ???

 

Sorry just need to correct that - Le Mans (where the 24 hour race takes place)

you are not the first to say that, lets hope you and we can answer your questions

TD

 

1386910 F/Sgt Patrick Thomas Green commissioned Pilot Officer 13 April 1943.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36044/supplement/2617/data.pdf

Promotion to Flying Officer 13 October 1943

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36211/supplement/4568/data.pdf

Regards,

Dave

 

Fabulous, thank you..... I spent an hour this morning chasing a Patrick green to discover he was a dentist in the RAF , This is really helpful...... so would he have commissioned on completion of his training as a pilot ?? and would he have gone straight to 107 on Bostons as they had then......I ve had more success on this forum than any of the others !

 

Unfortunately, those questions can only be answered by his service records.

The No. 107 Sqn Operations Record Book, held at Kew, could give you the date he arrived on squadron and when he first flew. Some ORBs say which station they came from.

Anything other than that would be a guess.

 

its great support, can I upload the records I have for 107 sqn to share with the network in case anybody else needs to research somebody ?

 

Adrian..... regarding the loss of W/O S M Green

The 1000 bomber raids on German target started on the night of 30 May 1942 and was Harris's big show to take the battle to the German war economy.It was the start in the summer of 1942 of the 1000 bomber raids on German targets which continued for 3 months.The first choice was Hamburg where the construction of U Boats there being a priority target.However the target was switched to Cologne due to adverse weather over the Elbe area which lingered on for 3 days.

To put up a 1 000 aircraft for the raid meant using front line aircraft from Bomber Command Groups some which had been in service with the RAF when war had started....something in the order of 700 aircraft... the Halifax and Stirling had entered service in 1941.There were few squadrons equipped with the Lancaster and conversion to the type had only been in progress for about 5 months and all from No 5 Group.

Thus the number fell well short of the envisaged force.The solution was that OTU crews who were well advanced on their course would be deployed and would be skippered by an experienced pilots and others who held positions on an OTU as instructors and possessed squadron operational experience, would be included in the Even so. it is recorded that 49 aircraft from No 91 (OTU) Group were skippered by pupil pilots.

In the planning phase, promises were made by Coastal Command that they too would supply something like 250 aircraft aircraft but this came to nought when the RN were unhappy that aircraft would be diverted from the primary role of keeping the sea lanes clear of the enemy.Harris had already loaned some selected bomber squadrons to Coastal Command.

In the end the force was made up of 678 Bomber Command front line aircraft from Nos 1, 3,4 and 5 Groups to arrive at a total of 1047 aircraft of which non front line units,ie OTUs and 4 Flying Training Command Wellingtons made up a component of 369 aircraft.

I would think that W/O S. M. Green as an Observer..... the role at this time covered navigation and bomb aiming on some aircraft would be one of the No 15 OTU Instructors based at Harwell that made up the ad hoc crews for this raid.He probably would have completed a "tour"....at this time of the war this would be defined as completing 200 operational flying hours against the enemy.

The other point about this raid is that the navigation aid GEE was being worked up on front line squadrons and the OTU aircraft would probably use these aircraft as a guide for navigation to the target.

As said W/O Green is buried in the Communal Cemetery at Charleroi...his CWGC burial details are here.

Casualty

W/O Greens service number 550338 suggests he was a regular and joined the RAF as a Boy Entrant in September 1934...should be confirmed on his service record.

There was a large intake just before the war for the Observer courses at RAF North Coates and W/O Green may have attended one of these courses...service records will reveal the posting for his Observer course.

 

I would guess that depends on how large the file is or how many images there are. The reason I say that is that we do have a resource section where lareger resource documents are uploaded and stored.
Would really need to know some numbers first before moving forward on that one.

TD

 

Thank you Harry, I believe Stanley was born in 1918, possibly in Kent so a boy entrant in 34 seems possible, this would also explain why he is missing from the 1939 census showing his younger brother Patrick who was still living in Fulham.

I think a trip to Kew is in order. The destruction of the wellington R1791 shows the pilot seeing the attacking 110 and taking evasive action allowing the gunners to unleash a hail of fie into the enemy aircraft before it returned and dealt a fatal blow, the report suggests the pilot was unconscious, I presume Stanley was killed, as there was no armour protection for the nav station, the two survivors being the rear gunner and front gunner,who s turrets were both out of action. one was captured, the other escaped and returned to the UK..... a fascinating tale !!!

 

4.25mb its about 35 pages for June 44 107 sqn diary

 

Is this him?

England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007
Name: Stanley M Green
Registration Date: 1918
Registration district: Milton
Inferred County: Kent
Re-registration Year: 1918
Mother's Maiden Name: Thwaites
Volume Number: 2a
Page Number: 1484

Should be able to confirm by his mothers maiden name
TD