Arnhem-Oosterbeek War Cemetery

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by ronald, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. ronald

    ronald Senior Member

    Some people insist on using this name for the cemetry as this is how the
    cemetry is named by the CWGC.
    However, from 1945 and onwards it was never called the Arnhem-Oosterbeek War cemetry, not by the men of the 1st Airborne Division, not by the Burgomaster of the Municipality of Renkum in 1945, not by the local people and later on also not by historians. I realise it are not ALL airborne men buried on the cemetry and that must be the reason the CWGC named it as is.If you look at the Memorial Service booklets the first time the name Arnhem-Oosterbeek war cemetry pops-up is in 2005. If you look at all the postcards from the cemetry from 1945 and onwards you will always see the text "Airborne Cemetry" or the Dutch equivalent 'Airborne Kerkhof.' The history of the cemetry has been described by the historian Willem Tiemens and he calls it the Airborne Cemetry Oosterbeek. We can conclude that the official name of the cemetry has never been used or was never widely accepted by those people involved with the Battle of Arnhem. So, don't ask the road to the Arnhem-oosterbeek War cemetry whilst in the area, people might look strange at you.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=279&pictureid=3628

    Ron
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Yes it's an historical name, but as a description 'Airborne Cemetery' is not accurate.
    I have no truck with Airborne veterans referring to it as such should they prefer to do so, however, I find it odd that people refer to it as this in posts here.

    Doesn't help much with googling for instance, because surely as a description it might apply to very many cemeteries.

    So, don't ask the road to the Arnhem-oosterbeek War cemetry whilst in the area, people might look strange at you?

    I'd hope that relatives visiting for it first time wouldn't go to Holland without looking for directions first. First point of call for researching a dead relative - CWGC. How sad surely if the locals couldn't help because the visitors used the CWGC's own title for it.
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
     
  3. ronald

    ronald Senior Member

    I don't see why Arnhem-Oosterbeek War cemetry is more accurate. How
    about all the men who died in Driel who were first buried there and later
    transfered to the cemetry? Whatever name you invent it will never be
    100% accurate.
    Now, about locals not knowing the name, you can't blame them if the name
    pops up for the first time in 2005 in a memorial service booklet, they are just used to the historical name..

    Ron
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    What an odd thing to say Ron, I missed the logic there. Carry on if you will, I really can't be bothered responding any more.
     
  5. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    .If you look at the Memorial Service booklets the first time the name Arnhem-Oosterbeek war cemetry pops-up is in 2005.

    Ron

    That may be true but the name of the cemetery Pre-dates that. I have copies of the register going back to well beyond 2005 where that name is used and I suspect it is the same in the original from the 50s.
     
  6. ronald

    ronald Senior Member

    Yes, i think CWGC named it the Arnhem-Oosterbeek war cemetery maybe
    already in 1945. I don't know who invented that name, someone behind
    a desk at CWGC i assume. In any case, i don't see the name in Memorial
    Service Booklets from the Airborne Forces Security Fund, sometimes you
    just see 'Oosterbeek cemetery' but not the official name. I would almost say it's a historical failure from the CWGC. Here you have the 2011 folder from
    the Airborne March Oosterbeek, look how they call the Cemetery. This is
    organised by the Police Sports Assocation of the Municipality. I just wanted
    to point out that in general it is known as the 'Airborne Cemetery Oosterbeek' and this dates from 1945.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=279&pictureid=3630
     
  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    In response to the refs you have posted - there's no surprise that the Airborne 'community' refer to it in this manner, is there?

    What I am trying to explain Ron is that the term excludes others in a way which I'd suggest the official CWGC name tries hard to address.

    Now this really is my last post here on the matter. I was going to move the thread to the War Cemetery section, but shall leave it here: clearly where your thoughts lie.
     
  8. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    I would almost say it's a historical failure from the CWGC.

    Why? The cemetery contains a large number of Airborne graves but it isn't entirely Airborne, and you have to remember fighting at Arnhem took place in 1945 as well as 1944. It would have to 100% Airborne be to get the official name 'Airborne Cemetery'.

    Locals and others can call it what they like but it's official name is Arnhem-Oosterbeek War Cemetery.
     
    dbf likes this.
  9. ronald

    ronald Senior Member

    The Canadian War Cemetery in groesbeek isn't 100% Canadian either.

    Okay, this was my last post too:)

    Ron
     
  10. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Yes but Canadian War Cemetery is its official name, that's the difference.

    To be honest I think this obsession with calling it an Airborne cemetery is disrespectful to the men who fought at Arnhem after those nine days in September 1944, and those who are buried in the non-Airborne plots.
     
  11. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  12. Medic7922

    Medic7922 Senior Member

    If I could upload the image, I have a photo that clearly says Arnhem Oosterbeek War Cemetery, so don't see what the fuss is all about.
     
  13. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    In Ron's defence, I must say that it is indeed locally refered to as Airborne Cemetery,and I think that will never change, by the dutch in the oosterbeek arnhem area, that also how it started in 1945, it first was even named: RENKUM/ARNHEM AIRBORNE CEMETERY, also by the GWGC, even until at least 1957.
    the same as Groesbeek it called the Canadian cemetery, which is also not correct as stated by stolpi
    Not sure when it was changed to Arnhem/Oosterbeek War Cemetery, but even that name is not correct, looking at some of the casualties buried there, but like others it is named after the place it lies, as then it should have been Oosterbeek War Cemetery.

    All I think Ron wants to say that the cemetery locally will always be refer to as the airborne cemetery because the Battle, and one noticed by entering it, it show all benches, and plates reffering to this, no wonder people refer to this, but no doubt most people realize that also other men are buried there, who were killed after the battle and even in 1945 during the liberation of the area
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Why then is it called Canadian War Cemetery?


    CWGC :: Cemetery Details

    Most of those buried in GROESBEEK CANADIAN WAR CEMETERY were Canadians, many of whom died in the Battle of the Rhineland, when the 2nd and 3rd Canadian Infantry Divisions and the 4th Canadian Armoured Division took part in the drive southwards from Nijmegen to clear the territory between the Maas and the Rhine in February and March 1945. Others buried here died earlier or later in the southern part of the Netherlands and in the Rhineland.
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    If we're going to get picky about CWGC cemetery names then how about this ?

    PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)

    It's not in Perth or China but near Ypres.
    The cemetery was begun by French troops in November 1914 (the French graves were removed after the Armistice) and adopted by the 2nd Scottish Rifles in June 1917. It was called Perth (as the predecessors of the 2nd Scottish Rifles were raised in Perth), China Wall (from the communication trench known as the Great Wall of China), or Halfway House Cemetery.

    CWGC :: Cemetery Details

    Toronto Cemetry & Toronto Avenue are not in Canada.
    CWGC :: Cemetery Details

    CWGC :: Cemetery Details

    And so on.......

    I don't care what they are called as long as there are still looked after & visited .
     
  16. Paul Pariso

    Paul Pariso Very Senior Member

    IMHO it doesn't really matter too much what we call these cemeteries, as long as we never forget that they are full of people who died in the past so that we may have this kind of free discussion today.

    All the best............:)
     
    Owen likes this.
  17. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    IMHO it doesn't really matter too much what we call these cemeteries, as long as we never forget that they are full of people who died in the past so that we may have this kind of free discussion today.

    All the best............:)


    Here, here.
     
  18. Lofty1

    Lofty1 Senior Member

    Always thought it sad the Arnhen chaps named on the memorial are not nearer their mates in Oosterbeek, so far away from Arnhem and in the Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery,must be misleading for for families of the fallen to have to travel to Groesbeek, and read Canadian War Cemetery as they enter, not a criticism, just an observation,

    regards lofty
     
  19. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    "so far away" - sorry, I don't understand that; it's less than 30km to Groesbeek from Arnhem and takes, what, 30-40 minutes? The Groesbeek Memorial is not an Arnhem memorial remember; it commemorates all the missing up to the end of the war, and there are men on there I have researched who died more than 200km away from where the memorial is. It's location isn't "misleading" as it's history clearly stated and of the many people I have taken there to see relatives 'misleading' is a word I have never heard.

    The IWGC decided in the 1950s to commemorate the missing for NWE on two memorials. The money to build battlefield memorials, as was the case in the Great War, was not there. So a decision was made to build two monuments, one in Bayeux commemorating those killed from D Day to the Seine, and Groesbeek commemorating those who died from the Seine to VE Day.
     
  20. TomTAS

    TomTAS Very Senior Member

    Hi All,

    You are all missing the point what does it matter where they are or the name of the cemetery... What really matters is that each of us go to the cemetery to pay the respect that they all deserve, most of you who know me will know that I have been to 98% of the cemeteries that have a link to Arnhem in some form... Don't forget its about the Man and Woman that are in fact in the cemetery and not the name of it....
     

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