Armoured Trains.

heres the armament.

Upper: MBV-2 after rearmament with L-11 guns
Lower: MBV-2 after rearmament with F-34 guns [2]

 

Noticed this thread in 'New Posts' search function and re-posting here link for Polish Armoured Trains formations: Polish armoured trains (from mentioned here Polish Armour thread). This link worth a read

 

Talking about draisines, I give you the type 95, So-Ki, Nip stuff for use in China, I guess.

Type 95 So-Ki

 

Coming late to this, but I've been searching for years for details and pics on British armoured trains - and it's VERY scarce.

Despite the HUGE amount of printed material on Britain's steam heritage...very little seems to have been preserved. I even spent out (a lot1) on an old Official History of the Southern Railway line printed in 1946 - only to end up disappointed.

So far, the pics of the Scottish armoured train from Berwick DOUBLES what I've ever seen, as I also have the Dymchurch pics.
As an observation - I'm not sure if it's a WWI tank gun at the rear of that...I'm not sure if it could be mounted in it's curved mantlet WITHOUT its upper "casemate" mount??? Possibly instead it's a modified Smith Gun???

However, I DO know - just have never seen pics - that in 1940 a number of gun trains for long-range artillery bombardment were created - WWI 5.5" naval guns were welded into the new steel-sided ore wagons that had just come into service. But problems with traverse and overlap meant that the "gun" wagons had to be spaced out with flatcars, usually engineers' flatcars used to shift rails around the network. The trains were never used, they were intended for use in time of invasion and then parked up.

 

That's ioteresting. The paper cover of the Southern Line history had a 40's style three-colour "art deco" illustration of a railway gun...but THEN no mention of them inside!!!

 

Phylo, pic and details of 12" Gun on rails which was stationed at Trimley near Felixstowe,Suffolk, ready to bombard the beach in case of invasion. See it here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/12821-12%22-howitzer.html

 

After reading Osprey's "Armored Trains", by Stephen J. Zaloga, I was finally able to put down in writing a couple of questions that had been in the back of my mind for a long time:

What good was the armored train as an offensive weapon, being such a predictable vehicle, tied to the rail line?

Did that same lack of versatility (mobility), in the face of an ever increasing air threat, throw the whole concept into obsolescence?

 

I could never understand the logic behind an armoured train.
Why put so much effort into something that becomes useless (And possibly a deathtrap for the crew members) when tracks are destroyed.

 

take the tracks away and add an airborne threat then would imagine it loses its value

 

Armoured trains had a very important tradition starting with WW1 and after that, Polish and Civil Wars. Also IIRC they were used by others in the Boer War and other theatres, China for instance. Remember that communications and logistics were almost entirely dependent on the railroad network, thereby tying operations to the proximity of a railroad. An armoured train was especially useful for railway security and for bringing fast a modicum of artillery to the place where the troops would be, the railhead.

Of course, with development of airpower the equation altered, look for instance what the Typhoons did to trains in France, but one has to look at the history of a system. Armoured trains for their time and their requirement were an excellent solution.

[added] And a very interesting thread this is, with some great links

 

An armoured train was especially useful for railway security and for bringing fast a modicum of artillery to the place where the troops would be, the railhead.

Armoured trains for their time and their requirement were an excellent solution.

Well, this answers remind me to mention (little mistake, sorry ) that I was referring to the offensive role of armored trains AFTER the inception of the ground-attack concept, with suitable weapons, of course.

 

Well, all that hardware lying around would have to have some use

And remember those German trains carrying obsolete tanks to go chasing partisans. That is, extending the role of the armoured train beyond the constraints of the railroad itself.

 

By WW2 the trains were theoretically rendered obsolete by airpower but the Poles, Finns and Soviets trains still enjoyed some successes as front line weapons. The Germans made extensive use of armoured trains to protect the rail system that was the backbone of their logistics. Most countries that relied on rail transports had some sort of "rail AFV" for patrolling the network.

AFAIK the British actually equipped two "armoured brigades" (23 and 24) with 12 trains during the 1940 invasion scare, I have some second hand reports on the trains composition but no pictures.

Italy had mostly naval trains that were not armoured but carried four 120mm or 152mm naval guns for coast defence.

This is what I have about the action against the forts of Cap Martin in June 1940.
3 navy Treni Armati (T.A.) were involved. T.A. 120/2/S was damaged in the action on the 22 after firing 232 rounds and suffered 8 deaths and 14 wounded, it was replaced by T.A. 120/1/S and T.A. 152/5/S that fired respectively 150 and 208 shells the next day without getting hit.

 

And remember those German trains carrying obsolete tanks to go chasing partisans. That is, extending the role of the armoured train beyond the constraints of the railroad itself.

Well, you're right with this one (it caught my eye while reading in the book about it, but forgot it ); it's interesting how this concept evolved from purely self-defensive to offensive, beginning with the assault infantry, then the self-propelled "dual-motion" light armor, and finally the heavy hardware on ro-ro platforms. Even during the 60's the Red Army used armored trains to carry battle-ready T-62's to the Chinese frontier, amidst heightened tensions.

Now, was that the only possible offensive role for the armored train in the warplane era? Seems to me its days as a main-battle weapon were over.

 

Here is an interesting site on WWII German Armoured trains

WW2

I believe that some of the British trains were manned by specialist Polish crews.

 

Following my last (whoops didn't check for previous thread) I have some pictures of an armoured train captured by a Jedburgh Team in France (suspect that they are in London so will post later) However here is a Hotchkis Armoured Car in Wehrmacht service in Russia, and a Sousa tank again as part of a German train on the Eastern Front.