Are we anti-German on this forum?

I'd welcome anyone on here, but then I didn't have to fight against anyone in a proper war, you know the all out sort.
My old man wouldn't go to the wedding of my cousin in Germany when he was in the Army stationed out there and marrying a German girl. Not because he didn't like her, because he did, but because he couldn't face going back there and having to deal with the memories of being back there.
I can quite understand the vets on here not being overly chuffed about having Jerry about the place.
Personally I would find it rather interesting. Whenever I see Axis vets talking about their experiences I'm always of the feeling that they're never quite giving the whole story.

I bet my uncle would have had something to say about all this having been in a POW camp, had he not fallen out of his machine gun tower. Boom Boom, I'll get my gas cape.

 

Well this is a topic I hadnt expected to see but the conversation has gone in a direction that I can envisage.

As a regular poster and Mod here I have personally strived to make this forum so much more than a WW2 forum with a Commonwealth bias/slant. I do however see that this area is our strength and am quite happy that it is so. But I have managed to forge quite a bit of a niche within its forums and there are many others who are likewise. The atmosphere is friendly with just a hint of lunacy to keep things interesting! but let people like me and Za be the example that you dont need to have an interest in Commonwealth and British forces to find a home here. Ranger are you reading this?

Now to the discussion at hand - In my opinion we are not Anti-German. We wont tolerate revisionism and I find justification for the actions of the Third Reich reprehensible. But that does not mean that I wont study the Third Reich or pretend that it isnt one of my areas of study. How a civilisation that gave us Martin Luther, Ludwig Van Beethoven, Johan Sebastian Bach and Immanuel Kant can descend into an evil corrupt society is one that has fascinated and will continue to fascinate me. I make no apology for this. And if we have a descendant of a German Soldier who wants to contribute a story or some pictures with no agenda or revisionism, then they should be free to post them without fear of judgement or criticism, especially if they are a member of long standing and posting.

 

I gonna say my little bit here:

No, we're not anti-German! I believe we're an open minded friendly bunch who are capable of discussing a diverse range of WW2 topics.

There was, however, a case a while back where certain individuals formed a lynch mob and attacked a member who, in my mind was simply asking an honest question about Zyklon B. He tried to defend himself by saying he meant no offence and admitted his naiveness to the true effects of the evil stuff.

He, in return got banned. I find that appalling, but apart from a little PM moan to Admin, I kept my mouth shut.

We ARE a nice bunch of people. The old metaphor that this place is like the smoky back room of a pub. It's a nice place to be.

All we gotta do is just be aware of the Loonys, and then we can all talk about any subject relating to WW2, regardless of it's controversial ingredients.

I might post a controversial thread about the Nazis and see how well we deal with it. :p:p

 

I'm surprised a member is reluctant to post about German soldiers. I don't know anyone one here who wouldn't repect a thread. Some won't forgive, fair enough, their choice but they would respect.
And Mike you can post about anything WW2 related (or sometimes not) in any of the sub-forums and no one will shoot you down for it. We're all interested in different aspects of WWII, that's why we are here.
Amen.

 

Don't forget though that having WW2 veterans actively posting on this forum is one one of the main reasons why this place is so special.

One of our Dear vets nearly left us not so long ago because of a new member who had a bit of a pro-nazi attitude.

There hasn't really been any controversial threads on here, and if we do start to openly discuss things like that, be careful not to upset our resident Vets.

They've been here a while and I think loyalty should come first.

 

interesting thread yet bizzare. I am too an American but with German ancestry from long ago, 6 relatives fought for the little shrimp from Austria and only 1 made it through the conflict alive via the Eastern front, and yet my own Grandfather, uncle and both Fathers fought and gave blood in both the ETO and PTO sphere's for the US armed forces. I respect the opinions and service of both Ron and Brian as we should all speaking with them here as well as the sister site ww2f.
Is this particular site non-German ? no I would say not if so nothing would be said of it and postings would of been terminated or edited long ago. If anything I find this site a pleasureable one a site that continues for 95 % to be of serious tone.

I mod on at least 3 other WW 2 sites and will tell you that sadly there is way too much child abuse: meaning too many young ones with a half-cocked and know it all attitude, with some incredibly stupid comments.

v/r E ~ and as a secondary note knowing many German veterans they would like to keep a low profile most do not own a PC nor care to take one up due to their age and in fact would likely be left alone so never be alarmed the site ever sees a German veteran come on board.

 

YUP I cannot forget what they did

I'm with you [especially on WW2 Forum!]--It's not just about the SS attrocities and the'final solution', but the subjugation of Europe,the systematic looting,the destruction of many beautiful European Cities, the use of forced labour in Germany and the behaviour of many Wehrmacht soldiers in Eastern europe.Yes there were lots of good and honourable German soldiers [and civilians[ but how could a country so apparently civliised as Germay throw up and,in many cases embrace, a monster like Hitler. Millions dead,orphaned or widowed because of Germany. So within the context of a WW2 forum i would hope there is an anti-German feeling.[and within the context of football!]

 

As a misdirection, and perhaps precursor to a future discussion thread - how about anti-French feelings? Why is it the English speaking world (well, those who care about the World Wars) seems to hold our former adversaries, the Germans, in higher regards than the French, our Allies? I don't understand it, especially for Americans whose independence as a nation is largely due to the intervention of the French!

Cheers, Marc

 

I don't have a problem with the French, although the line between patriotism and racism in France is very fine-I think those in the UK that knock their exploits during WW2 are the same as those who mock the Italians and their knowledge on WW2 stops at who actually won.

I'm probably wrong but I believe the resentment in recent times in America towards the French comes from the French refusal to join in with the War in Iraq in 2003.

*Even though they were there but not in great numbers compared to the other few nations taking part*

 

" Are we anti-German on this forum? "


Personally speaking? No. Not at all. One of the nicest blokes I ever knew was a German. Like me, he was too young to have been involved in WW2. Should I then have despised this lovely, even handed bloke, just because his Dad may have found himself caught up in the same hell my Dad did? I'll bet neither of them wanted to be there.

In fact, I'd be interested in examining pictures of German soldiers. I like looking at their uniforms and insignia, trying to learn more about them.

Reading what German Vet's had to say? I should say so! Never going to happen, of course. Thus we'll ever more be denied any perspective of the other side of the coin. Here, at least. Shame. But, there it is, I suppose.

But, no; I'm not 'Anti German'. Narrow it down though. Ask about still living, totally unrepentant and knuckle whiteningly arrogant former members of the Waffen SS or Einsatzgruppen ....? Baseball bat.

Well said Steve!

Other than the obvious exclusion for SS and Nazi's I have not noted an anti-German attitude on this site. It may be a matter of semantics but there most definitely is a pro Commonwealth bias.
How could it be otherwise. Most of us grew up with a Commonwealth bias simply because thats where we live. There was no Wehrmacht legion hall in my home town. Our friends, relatives, heroes, associates and our local institutions are all pro Allied forces. The stories we heard growing up were all told with that same slant.
But, I would venture to say that the many folks who contribute to this site and have made the study of WW2 a lifelong pursuit, are far more objective than the general public. That because they have taken the time to learn from as many perspectives as possible.
In my case, it was hearing from so many Canadian veterans who, almost unanimously, expressed a professional respect and admiration for their German adversaries, that made me reconsider my own attitudes. That said, it is hard sometimes to differentiate the regime and the horrors behind it.

 

Like a lot of members on here I'm a member on other WW2 fora, and depending on the country and member representation of the site I've found the subject matter and views vary. Let us not forget it was a 'WORLD' war after all, so all the nations involved have their own view point and interests. So, one site will be more interested in the US involvement, others will have the views of Australia or Canada, just like our main focus is on the UK's role. That's not to say any of them are 'anti' any other nation, they are just 'pro' their own.

The phrase 'Anti German' has opened the proverbial 'can of worms', and will no doubt prompt some complex answers. Personally I'm more than comfortable on this site because I'm British and that's the feel of the forum. I absolutely respect the views of our veterans, after all they where there. But, having WW2 as an interest then Germany's involvement must be a part of that. I wouldn't say there is an anti German feeling on here, there is just a lack of German representation.

We are (mainly) a sensible and friendly lot on here and as such I would hope that any subject matter relating to any aspect of WW2 could be discussed openly and sensibly. The odd 'nob head' can slip through the net on any forum, but I trust our Mods (and members) to close them down before they got too far.

That's my opinion anyway......

 

I don't have a problem with the French, although the line between patriotism and racism in France is very fine-I think those in the UK that knock their exploits during WW2 are the same as those who mock the Italians and their knowledge on WW2 stops at who actually won.

I'm probably wrong but I believe the resentment in recent times in America towards the French comes from the French refusal to join in with the War in Iraq in 2003.
Actually Drew, some of that sentiment comes from France's refusal to allow USAF fighter-bombers fly over France to bomb Kadaffy back in the 80s. Our jets had to fly out of bases in England over the Atlantic, cross into the Med at Gibraltar, bomb Libya, then return via the same route. Then during the build up for Persian Gulf War 1, the French were resistant to having their troops being commanded by Stormin' Norman, or anyone for that matter. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I believe that's what led up to what you pointed out about their refusal to participate in Persian Gulf War Part 2.

And keeping with the theme of this interesting and entertaining thread, I believe that there is an anti-German bias here and on ww2f. It tends to be more anti-nazi and ss, but without the German Army (which swore allegiance to Hitler), none of the terrible things would have been made possible. Sad but true.

Personally I am more anti-Japanese due to the fact of their obnoxious behavior in various well-known chapters in the PTO. I believe the root of that same sentiment is rooted in Europeans who suffered so much from Germany. How can you look at a country and get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you know what terrible things they did to and allowed to happen to so many innocent people? It will take centuries for the Germans to live that down.

Just my opinion folks....

 

We had now

- Anti German
- Anti American
- Anti French

It is my opinion that depending your own experience and origin, you can always have feelings against one or the other Nation in this world. I can expect in this forum, due to the origin of its members, that they are rather anti-German than anti-Sovjet or anti-American. The "Allies" were lucky that they were on the good side of the war-going Nations during WW2 and that Germany (I nearly wrote Nazi-occupied Germany) had industrialized the killing in the 'Concentration Camps' in that terrible way. I would not say tat Stalin's Sovjet Union was much less professional in this respect but at least they were fighting (only after being attacked by the Germans) together with the Western Allies.... and hardly any British or Commonwealth Soldier was confronted with the Red Army.

Still I wonder a little bit about some steatements made here above. Were the French really going to help the Americans against the British? Or was it just a good oportunity for them to fight their British enemy? And why should the French allow the US warplanes to cross their Country only because they want to attack Libya? Or whay should the... and so on.

It really makes me wondering sometimes why the 'common people' who were sent to fight & die by their government is always continueing to have bad feelings against each other whilst their responsible politicians who caused the conflict in fact (or at least were nt able to solve it in due time) are since long time shaking hands, dining togehter and making business again...

 

Just be careful you dont end up with sister forum and the statement it would be ok for SS to march in Australia all is forgiven; when it then degemerates to such bedevilment and hero status from mod, then like that forum this one will lose memberts too.

 

Just be careful you dont end up with sister forum and the statement it would be ok for SS to march in Australia all is forgiven; when it then degemerates to such bedevilment and hero status from mod, then like that forum this one will lose memberts too.
Hello Tom,nice to see you mate Another reason I only pop in that forum for 'visits'

 

Actually Drew, some of that sentiment comes from France's refusal to allow USAF fighter-bombers fly over France to bomb Kadaffy back in the 80s. Our jets had to fly out of bases in England over the Atlantic, cross into the Med at Gibraltar, bomb Libya, then return via the same route. Then during the build up for Persian Gulf War 1, the French were resistant to having their troops being commanded by Stormin' Norman, or anyone for that matter. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I believe that's what led up to what you pointed out about their refusal to participate in Persian Gulf War Part 2.

And keeping with the theme of this interesting and entertaining thread, I believe that there is an anti-German bias here and on ww2f. It tends to be more anti-nazi and ss, but without the German Army (which swore allegiance to Hitler), none of the terrible things would have been made possible. Sad but true.

Personally I am more anti-Japanese due to the fact of their obnoxious behavior in various well-known chapters in the PTO. I believe the root of that same sentiment is rooted in Europeans who suffered so much from Germany. How can you look at a country and get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you know what terrible things they did to and allowed to happen to so many innocent people? It will take centuries for the Germans to live that down.

Just my opinion folks....

I should be careful with that annalogy A58, America never had our permission either...They just did it and Thatchers response is quoted in her own biography.

 

My father was a POW in Germany - he did not hate the Germans, but he did hate Nazis/Fascists .... To him. the german soldiers were simply doing as he was - his job.

If this forum was anti-german, I wouldn't stay. Soldiers are soldiers and fanatics are a different creature


Same was true for my dad. And same sentiment from me too.

I presume that we will hardly find German veterans here - maybe because this forum is in Eglish language which was probably not that common amongst them. Just my gessing.

Very very true. The younger generations of Germans that I have met have a much better command of English than we, as a generation, have of German.
Still, if this were not so then my American cousins couldnt taunt me with "If it werent for us you'd all be talking German!"... Aaaaand I couldnt taunt them in the way I do, but I had better not repeat it here, as this is not that kind of thread... (gentle nudge!)

As a misdirection, and perhaps precursor to a future discussion thread - how about anti-French feelings? ...
Cheers, Marc

Going back 1000 years, we Brits (especially the English), and by inference our decendants around the world, ARE French (and if we go back further, Itallian and Danish and Dutch and German), but with the French (personally I love the place and the people) it is sibling rivalry on a grand scale. Brothers fight much harder and much longer than strangers

That claim that we, the Brits, used to "own" vast tracts of France is a falacy. Good king Richard II couldnt even speak English. He was French in all but crown... I could rant on about this for ages, but wont (anyone fancy setting up "PlantagenetTalk.com" ?)

Ask a person from Kent which nation they "hate" and it will be the French. Ask some one from Carlisle and it will be the Scots... It is whoever you are nearest and rub up against most often!

As for why "Americans hate French" I dont think they do (my cousins dont) Its just that a few movies have come out ("Slap her she's French" for example), and all of a sudden they are an easy and acceptable target.

 

As for why "Americans hate French" I dont think they do (my cousins dont) Its just that a few movies have come out ("Slap her she's French" for example), and all of a sudden they are an easy and acceptable target.
It's a two way street, someone may hate the Americans back: "Pobre Mexico, tan lejos de Dios y tan cerca de los Estados Unidos" - Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States

[added] This was attributed to Pres. Porfirio Díaz, a character in himself but son of an ugly mother

 

I read up to page four , will read the rest later today.

Anti German , it is probably best to look at this at several differnt levels.
A number of us , did not liove through WW2 and we did not know it as it was then , coming out of that experience and feeling anti- German is understandable but I do not think it is reasonable to extend that to the German people of today - a differnt time , a different generation.
In war the other side is trying his damnest to kill you and your friends - it is a pretty powerful expereince and by God it leaves its mark , it left its mark on my father , on one hand he hated the Nazis but he did not hate the German people - he recalled meeting German submariners after the war and found he had much in common with them - all of them were glad the war was over and he recalled a feeling of collective relief that the killing and waiting to be killed was over.

My own (1959 vintage view) - I have done my fair share of reading on Germany , the nazis and their value system - it disgusts me to see on sopme odd ball internet forums middle aged educated men and younger educated people trying to defend them and their " crusade for Europeans against Jews and Communism" - Nazi propaganda mixed with modren day conspiracy theory still breathes life into Hitler and some still find him attractive , twisted , distorted and irrational thinking and racialist ideology still provides a fertile bed for what Hitler thought and wanted , racial hatred is really nothing new - the Nazis just did it very well and they did leave us "A Warning From History".

I think what we need to realise is that whilst Hitler wanted a war , he wanted a war at Munich and when chancing his arm he finally got a bigger war than he was prepared for - the German people certainly did not want a war in either 1938 or in 1939 , and we know now that without a shadow of a doubt the German people were his first victims - he altered german Society beyond recognition and publically said that he had camps for any who disagreeded.
The German people were not the Nazis - the Nazis held a knife to the throat of the Germans just as they did all of Europe - certainly a lot of Germans supported the Nazis but they never won a election to office and they were on the wane when they finally got into power and when they got there they abused it utterly to the cost of the German people and leter Europe and the world in general.
The first people they gassed were Germans - this is what they did to their own people.

Anti - German - I think we have to keep things in balance and realise who the Nazis were and who the Germans wee and apply this with some even handedness.
Our parrents and grandparrents were forced into a war which cost them greatly and which will extract a cost until the last of that generation who fought has gone , we owe them a debt and none would argue this.

How we view the german Army / Wehrmacht - again balance is everything many fought because they had to and for a regieme they had been saddled with knowing only the propaganda which came from a controlled media and press.
"The Germans" were not all war criminals , that their cause was rotten to the core is without doubt it is not a black and white issue.
For those who fought and who expereinced it as it was , no lecture from me is intended and I would apologise for this if it seems the case .

 

Are we all done then fellow members.

Balanced views on the whole.

Owen your thoughts appreciated.