Appeal to 1945 1st & 6th Airborne Div vets - when were you issued the No5 rifle?

I collect and research Lee Enfield rifles.

One of the recurrent Lee Enfield questions is "when were No5 rifles first issued and used?".

The only firm evidence to date consists of several photos of 6th Airborne Division units carrying No5 rifles in Denmark (during the last days of the war in Europe) and with 1st Airborne Division in Norway (as part of the liberating force after 7th May 1945, Op Doomsday).

Looking at the situation with a soldiers' eye, it would seem logical that 6th Airborne Div probably re-equipped (including the No5 rifle for some infantry units) during a reconstitution phase after Op Varsity/Veritable in March/April 1945, and prior to the Division's subsequent tasks in North Germany and Denmark.

6th Airborne Division units subsequently served in the Far East and Palestine with the No5 rifle.

Are there any vets here who can shed light, or others with relevant evidence? Thanks!

 

Hi,
Can't really answer this except there are pictures of guys coming back from Arnhem with mark 4 but pictures of the KOSB in Norway with mark 5. Perhaps it was an experiment to see if it was easier to get in and out of gliders with a shorter rifle.

 

The answer will be in either to WO203 or the WO33 series of files at TNA Kew - probably WO208/1274

 

The answer will be in either to WO203 or the WO33 series of files at TNA Kew - probably WO208/1274

Thanks Jedburgh;

Forgive my ignorance, but what are the nature of those particular files? Unit diaries, or War Office instructions?

 

There is a range of files showing the allocation of weapons etc I will have a peek on Tuesday or Friday next week

 

Early in 1945 while I was at a pre-OCTU in Wrotham, Kent, I had the pleasure of firing the MK 5 which we were told was soon to be introduced. Not that it matters a dam, I just thought I'd tell someone.

Jim

 

Early in 1945 while I was at a pre-OCTU in Wrotham, Kent, I had the pleasure of firing the MK 5 which we were told was soon to be introduced. Not that it matters a dam, I just thought I'd tell someone.

Jim

Jim,

every little anecdote adds to the greater knowledge.

Believe it or not, the Enfield collector/research community has no information about use of the No5 prior to the appearance in the photos i have posted. Your little nugget of information actually breaks new ground, and it would be very interesting to hear anything you remember about the occasion, e.g.:

- What did they call the rifle (the name "Jungle carbine" somehow appeared later on);

- Was it described as the "new service rifle" (there were originally plans to replace all No4s with No5s across the whole army), or as "new rifle for paratroops" (its apparent original issue);

- What did people think of it?

- What date was it when you fired it?

 

We were told it was meant for jungle fighting, I liked it as it handled well. But I also fired that day a Russian burrp gun, a Japanese machine gun, some kind of field gun (liked that too) and God knows what else. It was some time about March 1945, I'd only just come back from Holland.

Jim

 

Jim,

every little anecdote adds to the greater knowledge.

Believe it or not, the Enfield collector/research community has no information about use of the No5 prior to the appearance in the photos i have posted. Your little nugget of information actually breaks new ground, and it would be very interesting to hear anything you remember about the occasion, e.g.:

- What did they call the rifle (the name "Jungle carbine" somehow appeared later on);

- Was it described as the "new service rifle" (there were originally plans to replace all No4s with No5s across the whole army), or as "new rifle for paratroops" (its apparent original issue);

- What did people think of it?

- What date was it when you fired it?

I used one briefly (range work) in Oman. The main problem was that it wouldn't hold it's zero, shooting to different points of impact on different days, allthough holding a nice tight group. The other thing I recall was the "kick". This was to be expected due to the reduction in weight and whoever designed it incorporated a recoil pad in the butt. Unfortunately they chose to make this from a very hard rubber applied as a strip narrower than the original butt plate which only served to make the recoil more noticable.

 

I used one briefly (range work) in Oman. The main problem was that it wouldn't hold it's zero, shooting to different points of impact on different days, allthough holding a nice tight group. The other thing I recall was the "kick". This was to be expected due to the reduction in weight and whoever designed it incorporated a recoil pad in the butt. Unfortunately they chose to make this from a very hard rubber applied as a strip narrower than the original butt plate which only served to make the recoil more noticable.

Its thought that the rubber butt plate was actually put there to help protect the rifle from impact when packed in a parachute leg bag or rifle sleeve, although the record of that part of the design criteria seems to be lost.

The "wandering zero", although mentioned in field reports, is open to debate. Most No5 owners with correctly stocked-up rifles report a normal shooting performance. There may be two possible causes:

(1) the rifle is the only .303" Enfield that was supposed to have an entirely free-floating barrel. However, stocking up quality at Fazakerley was notoriously poor (on the No4 rifle as well. Fazakerly later had to be shut mid-way through production of the L1A1), and many of those No5s have the barrel touching the forend and/or a porr fit in the draws.

(2) the flash hider covers half of the barrel crown, and is a difficult place to clean. Firing deposits on the crown are quite capable of throwing the group off - as with "cord-worn" crowns.

 

Thunderbox, I would go with your comments regarding the stocking and the deposits in the flash hider, both make sense, and it was some 25 years old when I was using it. I'd be interested in knowing by what route it made its way to Oman. And why you chose the username Thunderbox, I hope you don't call your wife/partner "My little desert rose".