Anti-Tank Regiment Questions

Good Evening All


I m doing some research for a history paper for school and corresponding Models to go with the paper for my exhibit. I am new to deep research and was told by a fellow modeler to come here. SO ill get to it I have 5 Main questions as I have searched and searched Google and IWM and have come up short. SO here it goes.

#1 I am looking for what RA Anti Tank regiments Had the M10 and the M10 C 17pdrs (Not the Archer or Towed. I have read the all did. but cannot seem to find the info. Also some say regts had 3 BTY's of 4 troops or 4 BTY's of 3 Troops.

#2 of the Battery's which troops had the M10's and which had the M10C (17pdr), have read that the Last BTY had them all some had 1 troop of 4 per BTY.

#3 cannot find any info about the Troop itself was it 3 M10's and 1 M10C (17pdr) or all M10's or M10C's. I think I have part of the marking right though that it would be a Square with blue over red and red square in right top corner with ABCD with 1234 on white in middle.

#4 what has eluded me also is the vehicle ID's. I have seen a picture of a M10C (17) with the 33rd AB marking and 61 Aos. but I think this wrong am I right?? I have seen a partial picture of an M10C with what looks to be a 2 with awhite bar over it and I think a red Diamond on the other side.

#5 Vehicle ID's Markings of the Anti Tank Regiments I am in desparate need of are.
30 Corps
XII Corps
50th INF
3rd Inf- I think is the Black and Red Triangles and is the 20th AT RGT??? But that is all
43 InF
49th INf

I know it is a lot but I have been looking for over a week. Please help and thank you in advance.

Eugene

 

Hello all

Im doing some research for a history paper for school and corresponding Models to go with the paper for my exhibit. I am new to deep research and was told by a fellow modeler to come here. SO ill get to it I have 5 Main questions as I have searched and searched Google and IWM and have come up short. SO here it goes.

#1 I am looking for what RA Anti Tank regiments Had the M10 and the M10 C 17pdrs (Not the Archer or Towed. I have read the all did. but cannot seem to find the info. Also some say regts had 3 BTY's of 4 troops or 4 BTY's of 3 Troops.

#2 of the Battery's which troops had the M10's and which had the M10C (17pdr), have read that the Last BTY had them all some had 1 troop of 4 per BTY.

#3 cannot find any info about the Troop itself was it 3 M10's and 1 M10C (17pdr) or all M10's or M10C's. I think I have part of the marking right though that it would be a Square with blue over red and red square in right top corner with ABCD with 1234 on white in middle.

#4 what has eluded me also is the vehicle ID's. I have seen a picture of a M10C (17) with the 33rd AB marking and 61 Aos. but I think this wrong am I right?? I have seen a partial picture of an M10C with what looks to be a 2 with awhite bar over it and I think a red Diamond on the other side.

#5 Vehicle ID's Markings of the Anti Tank Regiments I am in desparate need of are.30 Corps
XII Corps
50th INF
3rd Inf- I think is the Black and Red Triangles and is the 20th AT RGT??? But that is all
43 InF
49th INf

I know it is a lot but I have been looking for over a week. Please help and thank you in advance.

Eugene

 

Are you looking specifically at 21 Army Group in Northwest Europe, or Italy as well, as things were different in both theatres?

In 21AG the M10s were found in three types of Atk Regt; those of three Assault Divs (3rd British, 3rd Canadian and 50th Northumbrian), the Armoured Divisions and the Corps Atk Regts. The Armd Div and Corps Atk Regts used a similar org, with two 17-pr Btys (towed) and two SP Btys (M10s). Btys had three Troops, with four pieces per Troop of the relevant weapon. The Assault Div Atk Regt had four Btys, again each with three Tps of four weapons apiece, with one SP Tp and two towed 6-pdr Tps per Bty. This was supposed to be a very temporary arrangement for the assault landing itself, after which the Regts would revert to the usual towed org for an Infantry Div, but the Divs involved held onto their M10s right up until the end of 1945 when the SP 17-pdr 'Archer' began to arrive.

The actual replacement of 3-inch weapons by 17-pdrs in M10s took some time; the Armd Divs had twelve of each in Jun44 for example, and could have one Bty of each type, though 21st Atk Regt looks to have had two of each type per Tp instead. I have some figures for 3-inch versus 17-pdrs in 21AG, but only from early 1945.

Gary

 

Hello Eugene,

You need one of our Artillery experts to drop by and comment, e.g. ramacal, shelldrake... If they don't drop by send them a PM (personal message) asking them to look in on this thread.

Regarding #5, the 50th (Northumbrian) Division formation sign is per my avatar and the anti-tank regiment was the 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-Tank Regiment.

You may find forum member, Peter G's fomation signs site of interest; link: http://www.petergh.f2s.com/flashes.html and that of Souchman's Tack Signs; link: http://www.souchman-home.com/Les-marquages-anglais/linfanterie.html

There is also a thread on this forum about 'Ellis Race' (I think) who served with the 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-Tank Regiment. There is a lot of information therein about formations signs, etc.

Best,

Steve.

 

Eugene

It would be worth adding some tags to your thread which will be picked up by those that Steve mentioned and others

To do this, edit your first post and use full editor to add tags

TD

 

This was meant to be the easy bit...

Inf Div A/Tk Regts carried the unit serial 46
Armd Div A/Tk Regts carried the unit serial 77
Corps A/Tk Regts carried the unit serial 2 and a white bar over the AoS patch.

Usually these were on the standard red over blue AoS (plus the formation signs of course) but there were variations. Notably, 102 A/tk Regt with 50 Div had a green over blue AoS. They also seem to have used the battery/vehicle role markings similar to those used by the Fd Regts, by in green/blue, not red/blue.

3 Div's 20 A/Tk Regt, according to an example I've got, had the unit serial on the lower blue half of the AoS with a letter-number code in the upper red half - presumably troop and subsection.

11 Armd Div's 75 A/tk Regt appears to have had just the 77 on red/blue with no bty/tp/sub identification.

Re your #4: the 2 and red diamond suggests 1 Corps which was 62 A/Tk Regt.

Mostly cribbed from Bouchery's The British Soldier From D-Day to VE Day: Vol 2: Organisation, Armament and Vehicles and Hodges/Taylor British Military Markings 1939-1945

 

This page http://nigelef.tripod.com/anti-tank.htm should answer some of your questions.

 

The intentions were to up gun the M10s with the 17 Pdr as the "Achilles". However the conversion was delayed by industrial action. According to a file note dated 20 may 1944 in the diary kept by HQ RA 2 Army there would only be enough M10s fitted with 17 Pdr guns to issue 12 to each Corps Anti Tank Regiment (62 and 73 ) and 12 to each armoured Division. (65 for 7th armd Div.)

Your question #2 may not have a single answer. The file note does not record how the Regiments were to use the 17 Pdr varients. The allocation was an expediency and one which would be addressed during the Normandy campaign . This was an expediency which would be addressed as the supply of 17 pdr M10s improved. The RA may have left each CO or BC to decide how they would use them.

The war diary for 65 Atk Regt (7 Armd Div) for 11 June notes that 260 Bty (17 pdr on M10-) had knocked out a Pz IV.

OP O No1 for 62 Atk Regt (for op Windsor) gives a grouping of 62 Atk Regt refers to F K & L "M10" troops and makes no distinction between 17 Pdr and 3"

A letter from the CO of 73 Atk Regt (30 Corps Atk Regt) dated 22 June explains his views on the role of the M10. it mentioned that the M10 can be armed with either the 3" or 17 Pdr gun, but does not comment on the any of the points you raise. His kletter is concerned about the bigger matters such as ensuing that M10s were not being used as tanks, and were released to the reserve as soon as the infantry could do so..

On a practical point, the guns of the m10 equipped units might be knocked out or replaced by whatever m10s might be available . Atk guns were vulnerable and took casualties. Tidy organisations and symmetry is something better suited to the parade ground or the toy box

 

Here are the anti tank Regiment affiliation for Op Overlord:-
20 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 3rd Infantry Division (Assault f div)
21 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA Guards Armd Div
55 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 49th (West Riding) Division
59 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division
61 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 51st (Highland) Division
62 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA I Corps
65 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 7 Armd Div
68 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 59th (Staffordshire) Division
71 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 53rd (Welsh) Division
73 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA XXX Corps
75 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 11 Armd Div
86 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA XII Corps
91 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA VIII Corps
97 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 15th (Scottish) Infantry
102 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RA 50th (Northumbrian) Division (asauilt Div)
5 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RCA 4th Canadian Armoured Division
2 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RCA 2nd Canadian Division
3 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RCA 3rd Canadian Division (assau;lt Div)
6 ANTI TANK REGIMENT RCA II Canadian Corps
1 ANTI TANK REGIMENT Polish Polish Armoured Division


The Corps Atk Regts and Armd Div had
2 x 17 Pdr Batteries and 2 x M10

E.g.
73 Atk Regt (30 Corps) 195, 196 *198 *234 ATk Bty *M10



65 ATk Regt;(7th Armd Div) Btys: 257, 258*, 259, 260*
* M10




21 Atk (Gds Armd Div ) Q Bty* Y Bty* Z Bty & 2 Bty * M10

91 Atk Regt (VIII Corps Atk Regt) 2 x M10 (three tps), 2 x 17-pounder (three tps)



The atk regts of infantry divisions did not have m10s. They had .foru batteries @ Each 1 x 17-pdr, 2 x 6-pdr tps
59 ATk Regt Btys: 233, 235, 236, 333 Ex 5 Devons

BUT the assault formations on D Day had an allocation of M10s for the assult, as towed atk guns could not be used in the surf (and any wheeled vehicles were liable to bog down, as was the bren carrier and 6 pdr witha cross country performance described as "paralytic" )

So 3rd 50th and 3rd Cdn had M10s.



Allocation of SP troops is not always systematic.
20 Atk Regt (3 Div)

41: A, B, C
45: I, J, K
67: E, F, G
101: M, N, O
SP tps: B, E, I & O



102 Atk (50 Div) M10 (one tp of four/bty) 6-pdr (two tps of four/bty

 

Thank you all so much

I am in information overload but in heaven at the same time. and I think most of my question have been answered, where I am hung up now is in reading some war diaries and some written info on my subjects. so I will layout what I am planning and then would love for help in the corrections so sd I am close to accurate as possible.

#1 I read that the 20th Anti Tank RGT 45 BTY I troop had M10's Supporting the infantry around Hermanville, is this pretty accurate or they had 17pdr Achillies.?

#2 read that the 59th anti tank 233 and 235 were SP M10 fighting with the Somersets and Dorchesters?? in Epsom and Hill 112 is this correct?

#3 and that B troop of 245 BTY and 248 Battery of 62nd were Achillies 17lbrs fighting in Buron with the HLI?

#4 and lastly A troop of the 114th Bty 75th ATK was fighting up front with the 2nd Fife and Forfar as they took Heavy Casualties I want to say OCt 44 before the Battle Bure in January. I am looking thru my notes and cant seem to locate it.

So any help to these 4 questions would be absolutely outstanding and once agin thank you all for the guidance.

Eugene

 

Dear Thundergrunt,


Re #1 In post #9 I shared the sourced information that the Achillies were distributed to the Corps and Armd Div Atk Regts as per the instructions on 20 may 1944. Is 20 Atk Regt either one of these? The answer is in #post 10. There are lots of photos of the M10s of 20 Atk Regt on D Day. Google these terms and see if you can spot an M10 with a 17 Pdr gun,.

Re #2 Dorchester is a hotel named after the town. The Regiment is the Dorsetshire Regiment often shortened to "The Dorsets" . As explained in Post #10, other than in the three assault divisions, the Anti tank Regts of the Infantry Divisions did not have M10s, but batteries of troops of towed 6 pdrs and 17 pdrs. It is unlikely that 59 Atk Regt, the divisional atk regt of 43 Div had M10s either on Op Epsom or Op Jupiter the battle for Hill 112. (Though some might have been attached from the Coirps Atk Regt)

Re #3 & 4 Which battles, which dates. The greater the precision of your question, the easier to answer.

You might be right , but I am not minded to spend this morning checking each war diary. Sorry to appear grumpy. I don't mind helping people who want to find out more about the gunners. However, if you are suffering from information overload, the answer is to digest what you have before posting more questions!

 

Shelldrake

I found this on the Imperial War Musem Website About the 61st ATK of the 51st Division.
which is what peaked my intrest in the at the Infantry divisons had M10 besides the 3rd,3rd CAN and 50th. I also found one about the 43rd Doiv got remember where.

" I. Filming from the 5th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders' lines at Sainte-Honorine-la-Chardonne, the cameraman observes a troop of M10 Wolverines from the 61st Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery moving up to defend 152nd Brigade's front from counter-attacks by 21st Panzer Division units and coming under mortar bombardment. A motorcyclist despatch rider follows an ambulance along a road running alongside the Canal de Caen de la Mer; a column of smoke rises beyond a spur overlooking the canal."

And here is the info with the 59th AT 235 Battery part of it other was in 129th. with the 130 Brigade Battle group with the 7th Battalion, The Hampshire Regiment,4th Battalion, The Dorsetshire Regiment and 5th Battalion, The Dorsetshire Regiment

" 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division at Hill 112, 10th July 1944
Major General Gwilym Ivo Thomas Commanding,Brigade conducted a separate attack, in concert with Operation Jupiter, down the Odon valley, northeast
towards Caen. The brigade (with ‘B’ Squadron, 7 RTR, from 31st Army Tank Brigade) made good progress against little
opposition and soon linked up with the Canadians near Carpiquet. Consequently, one battalion was detached from the
brigade to support 130th Brigade at Eterville, which was having a much harder time of it. 4th Armoured Brigade, together with the truck-mounted 214th
Infantry Brigade, was the operational reserve and breakthrough
formation for Operation Jupiter. However, as the initial attacks
against Hill 112 by 129th and 130th Brigade had failed to secure
their objectives, Brigadier Carver rebuffed General Thomas’
order to commit the brigade to the battle – believing (almost
certainly correctly) that it would be suicide to send his tanks up
and over Hill 112. In the event, 214th Brigade was taken away
from Carver to bolster the attacks on Hill 112 and Carver
eventually had to send the Scots Greys up Hill 112 in a doomed
attempt to save 5 DCLI. 144th Antitank Battery also saw action
on the day – against the Tigers of SS-Schwere-Panzer-Abteilung
102. The remainder of the brigade eventually saw some action
during the night and over the next few days, but there was no
major commitment of the brigade en masse as originally
planned."

I gotta take better notes I think the 86th ATK was there too and they had Achillies and 6 Pdrs. Ill keep looking. and find that.

 

Thundergrunt.

The IWM's photographer may have struggled with the RA Atk groupings and attachments. I don't know ehich day you are referring to but the 61 Atk Regt War Diary for August mentions SP troops attached from 248 bty of 62 Atk Regt - the Corps Atk Regt.

Where did you get your account of Op Jupiter and Hill 112? Lord Carver told the story slightly differently, at least in the after dinner version! He claimed to have nominated the Scots Greys as the attacking unit, and the threat of heavy losses to a regular cava;lry unit prompted the switch of the assignment from the 4th ot the 31st(?) armoured brigade, which attacked, and suffered the losses - and why there is a Churchill not a Sherman memorial on Hill 112.

I could not do justice to the actions of the anti tank guns on Op Juliport in a forum post. It is a bit complicated. However, this is where the infantry and RA vanot tank gunners faced a battalion of Tiger tanks 43 Div's infantry were followed up by the towed equipment of their own divisional anti tank Regiment while 129 and 340 Bty of the XII Corps Atk Regt were under command of 9 and 7 RTR in support of the attack. The M10s providing the atk capability which the Churchill's lacked. There is a memoir written by an NCO in 59 Atk called "Tank Alert" 59 ATk Regt lost a BC and two troop commanders killed and two BCs and a BK wounded while attending a conference on 13 Jul, and in 86 ATk Regt two troop commanders were wounded.

 

Hi

I started my own post on here trying to find out information about my Grandfather. His B103 form was missing from his files so, I know very little about him or his experiences. I came across this after a search on the 86th ATk. He was a Gunner in 86th ATk and I believe (although not sure) he was with 130 Bty of XII Corps at Hill 112. Do you know if he would have used a towed 17pdr?

Thanks
Jo

 

Hello Jo,

This isn't my subject but I found this online:

The 5th and 7th Battalions The Devonshire Regiment in World War Two - The Keep Military Museum, Dorchester, Dorset

'The 86th landed in Normandy in late June 1944 and in mid-July, as part of 43rd Wessex Division, fought on Hill 112 and near Maltot. Two of their batteries were equipped with 17-pounder anti-tanks guns while the others were in self-propelled M10 tank destroyers. On Hill 112 two of their troops of M10s knocked out five Tiger tanks and one Mark IV. Their machine guns also downed a Focke-Wulf fighter. Here, on the forward slope, one troop of 17-pounders were overrun by the Germans but the gunners managed to remove their firing mechanisms before extricating themselves in good order. Around Maltot the Regiment lost three M10s knocked out. They then saw action in the Falaise pocket, in the south of Holland and across the Rhine until the war’s end in May 1945.'

CS

 

To clarify, he was in 130 Battery, part of 86 Anti-Tank Regiment which was the Corps Anti-Tank Regiment for XII Corps, which was part of Second Army.

Unfortunately we can't confirm (re: other post) his exact assignment. He may have been involved at Battery Headquarters etc, or could have been a member of a Gun Detachment crewing towed 17 Pounder etc.

 

130 Battery were equipped with towed 17 Pdr Equipment. The towed 17 Pounders were difficult to deploy quickly. The towed 17 Pounder batteries in the corps Anti tank Regiments were used as a back stop against German counter attacks or to hold key points. Because of the presence of Tiger tanks the 17 pounders were deployed forward with the infantyr on the assault on Hill 112.

Here are some extracts from the draft regimental history of the Royal Artillery in the Normandy Campaign.

I think anyone who served a 17 pounder gun under these circumstances is a hero. Yes it could knock out any German tank, but the detachment had about as much protection as Wellington's gunners at Waterloo.

It is well worth reading Tank Alert! (1) It is by a soldier from 59th Anti tank Regiment, the 43 Wessex division's own anti tank regiment, but they served in the same battle around the same time and will have shared common experiences with your grandfather.


1. Tank Alert: A Personal Account and Brief History of 236 Antitank Battery, 59th Antitank Regiment, Royal Regiment of Artillery in the 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division Paperback – 12 Aug 1999 by Ivor D. Astley

 

Wow!
That's quite an eye-opener!
Thank you so much for this.

 

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