...and Then He Got Himself A Pub...

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by jennifer holt, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. jennifer holt

    jennifer holt Junior Member

    Hello

    Trying to find any service details re; Dan Mitchell. I'm led to believe that he spent time in the far east during the war. He used to tell my dad that he had to swim for his life across the yangtze, but I don't know if thats a family 'legend' or not.

    He was from Huddersfield, and after the war he bacame a pub landlord
    (And quite frankly I don't blame him)

    His brother Frank Mitchell may have also served, but I know even less about him

    Any info much needed and appreciated

    Jennifer Holt
     

    Attached Files:

  2. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    The Yangtse is a river in China and no British forces were involved there in WWII. However, on 20 April 1949 the British sloop HMS Amethyst came under fire in the Yangtse from Chinese Communist forces. Quite a number of the crew were killed, the ship ran aground and about 65 crew members swam ashore, later to find their way to Shanghai by train. After a stand-off of 10 weeks, remaining crew members eventually got the ship away and made it to the sea and back to Britain (after repairs in Hong Kong).

    This might be what he was referring to and his name may have been listed in the papers at the time. Some of the larger public libraries keep back copies of local and some national papers going back well beyond 1949 and this is well worth checking. It can be a bit tedious to do, but it is amazing what else you find of interest while you are searching.

    Link:

    http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscom...hmsamethyst.htm
     
  3. jennifer holt

    jennifer holt Junior Member

    thanks Angie - at last i have something to work on!

    Sounds like a fairly big operation, so information shouldn't be too hard to find

    Regards

    Jennifer
     
  4. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Ahem......beg to differ re British in China angie. The Yangtse reaches the sea at Shanghai. Do we take it the British were not at Shanghai? Conflict between Japan and China for the W.W.II period - which for them was the Second Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945 - was milestoned on 7 July 1937 with the Battle of Lugou (Marco Polo) Bridge, southern Peking (Beljing). This battle being a development of the Japanese occupation of Manchuria in 1931 and subsequent installation of a puppet government. Roughly speaking the Chinese and Japanese settled for holding opposing ends of the bridge. The Japanese wanted to enter the Chinese sector to look for an AWOL soldier/possible abductee, and it snowballed from there with each side blaming the other (or various officials among the Chinese) for escalation/aggression/bungling - which continues to this day. Sound familiar?

    On 9 November 1937 the 'special city' of Shanghai (China's chief International trading port) was seized by the Japanese. This act pushed Britain and America off the 'play both sides' fence in favour of supporting China despite the pro Communist element in China while Japan was anti Communist - the dilemma. Both had trading bases and communities in Shanghai - the International Settlement - guarded by the Seaforth Highlanders in Britain's case, 4th Marines (later plus the 6th) and 31st Infantry for the US, plus naval presences (e.g. HMS Ladybird, Peterel and Bee, and USS Panay, Oahu, Sacramento and Augusta). Forces ashore at Shanghai - British Brigade 3,600; 4th Marines 1,625; 31st Infantry; 1,100; Shanghai Volunteer Corps 1,500. French forces in their concession number approximately 3,000.

    The British forces had placed under their command the Shanghai Volunteer Corps which in 1938 had 19 different units, including American, British, French, Portuguese, Filipino (Dutch), Russian, and Jewish. The SVC was disbanded in 1942. Apart from financial and materiel aid, America thereafter provided aeronautical aid (the Flying Tigers) and Naval aid from the British. The Soviets supported China, being keen to foster Communism, and even Germany was there with military advisors - actively directing Chinese troops against the Japanese at Shanghai in 1937.

    British land forces remained until August 1940 and the Americans until November 1941. However, while this is what happened with the overt forces, Britain was hatching a plan to aid China against Japan on land covertly. I suppose the main agenda was to have the Chinese (Chaing Kai-Shek - Nationalist) fight against any Japanese who would invade Burma, which of course they did. 'Dennys Mission', otherwise 'Mission 204', from April 1941 was to train the Chinese in Guerrilla Warfare. The Bush Warfare School was set-up in Burma staffed by volunteers from the British forces out there and Commando volunteers from other theatres. En masse the largest contingent probably came from the Middle East Commandos or No.7 Commando when Layforce was disbanded (Mediterranean/Middle East). There was also a sizeable draw from Australian forces who used the term 'Tulip Force' for its men and mission. Peak size for 204 was around 250 men. It's quite certain they did more than just train guerrillas and/or act as advisors though some did no more than this. Various units went into China and were involved in actions to varying degrees. However, they never fought as a whole battalion and doubtfully ever made raids on their own - though this may have happened?

    I would guess Dan Mitchell was either Army or Navy stationed at Shanghai, but, the Yangtse is a very long river and the swimming incident may have occurred way inland towards Burma where 204 operated?
    View attachment 382
    No.9
     
  5. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I think you answered this yourself, no 9. British land forces - which were there to guard the international settlement - were pulled out in 1940. Later, the whole of Shanghai was occupied by the Japanese and the Europeans still there were interned.

    Apart from possibly small groups like you described in even smaller numbers, British forces did not operate in China in WWII. While you can't rule out his involvement, it is improbable in the absence of information to the contrary. We do not know his age, for instance, or anything about his overall period of service, so there is much we cannot assume.

    I still think that the 1949 incident and perhaps the period from the Japanese surrender in 1945 up to 1949 is worth researching. Also, depending on the context, the remarks about swimming the river may have alluded to the "legendary" swimming feats of Chairman Mao and been a private joke between some family members.
     
  6. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    I'd just add that the Shanghai international defenses included portions of an Italian Marine battalion (split between Shanghai and Shau Kei Wan near Beijing (Peking), and two Italian gunboats. They stood aloof from Shanghai's conquest, but were rounded up by the Japanese in 1943 when Italy switched sides. The Italian Marines landed in POW camps, and were divided between Fascists and anti-Fascists. There's a good story on the Italian forces in Asia in a recent issue of World War II magazine. The two gunboats were used by the Japanese Navy and surrendered to the Allies roughly intact in 1945, along with the captured American gunboat Wake. The skipper of HMS Peterel, New Zealander Steve Polkinghorn, followed his orders and fought back on December 8th, and the Japanese sank his ship. The even less-well armed Wake's skipper followed his orders and scuttled the Wake, but it only sank down a couple of feet in the river. They were the last Western defenders of Shanghai when the Japanese marched in. The scene is graphically described in J.G. Ballard's book "Empire of the Sun" and Spielberg did a decent job in the movie, catching the sheer chaos and hysteria.
     
  7. jennifer holt

    jennifer holt Junior Member

    Well i've certainly got plenty to go at now!

    Shame there isn't anyone in my family that i can ask. Apparently when asked why he swam across the yangtze, my uncles reply was 'well you'd do the same if you had a load of japs above you dropping bombs everywhere'

    Not the most politically correct response i admit, but not the most politically correct times either.

    Thanks for your help, and if i ever get to the bottom of this mystery, i'll let you know!

    Tek care

    Jennifer :D
     
  8. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    I agree the information provided is far too scant to reach any firm conclusions angie.

    Jennifer, with no real specifics as Kiwi says why not read "Empire of the Sun" which is palatable, entertaining and informative for the lay-enquirer - or look at the film for a quick fix? Though by no means conclusive, it would appear the swimming incident is probably linked to the Japanese taking of Shanghai. What Dan was doing there however...........? Was he Navy or Army? I would suggest at this stage you don't spend any time looking into 204 which I can't see being directly relevant.

    You've lost me re the 'politically correct' comment? Is it perhaps the reference to "Japs" - the nasty butchering, raping vermin who starved, tortured and worked to death thousands of Allied soldiers in the name of their pathetic god Emperor? There again, did the Allied POWs have any softer treatment than the civilians of China? If you consider the treatment of the Jews in Europe inconceivable, look into the suffering and loss of the Chinese people at the hands of their invader.

    No.9
     
  9. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Thanks for the info on craft at Shanghai Kiwi. Amazing about the Peterel. My understanding of the time is Japanese forces there were overwhelming.

    Very interesting too the info about Italian deployment and that the Japanese bothered to divide them. Do you know if the Salo fascists were delivered to the Germans out there or repatriated?

    No.9

    ps how you getting on with your viruses?
     
  10. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by No.9@Dec 2 2004, 03:00 AM
    Thanks for the info on craft at Shanghai Kiwi. Amazing about the Peterel. My understanding of the time is Japanese forces there were overwhelming.

    Very interesting too the info about Italian deployment and that the Japanese bothered to divide them. Do you know if the Salo fascists were delivered to the Germans out there or repatriated?

    No.9

    ps how you getting on with your viruses?
    [post=29789]Quoted post[/post]
    Thanks for the note. There was a good article on Shanghai on Pearl Harbor Day in an issue of Naval History magazine, by the US Naval Institute. The Japanese had a considerable force around the International Settlement, having taken the rest of the city from the Chinese in 1937, when they landed the Shanghai Expeditionary Force. This mostly consisted of naval infantry backed by carriers at that time. By 1941, the Japanese Army had moved in as well. The big punch was the Japanese air force and the ancient cruiser Idzumo, which had been a fixture on the Bund waterfront scene for decades, Japan's contribution to the International Settlement patrol. Her guns punched out Peterl and Wake. The Italian POWs' fate...I'd have to check the article. I think they were all held POW as I don't believe Mussolini set up an embassy in Japan after Italy changed sides. I can tell you that a bunch of American POWs were all taken out of their camp near Shanghai by the Japanese and beaten senseless in late 1943. The semingly-random POW victims wondered why they were beaten, until they realized they had one thread in common -- Italian names. They were blamed for Italy leaving the war.
     
  11. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Thank you for the further info Kiwi. Made a quick web search and found http://www.hmsfalcon.com/Peterel/Peterel.htm with some words and pics on the Peterel and Wake. All adds a bit to the big picture, and the crew list for the Peterel at least suggests Mitchell was not among them.

    Re the Italian POWs, I agree I can't imagine Mussolini would have an Embassy as the Salo regime was by the grace of and under control of Hitler. Ergo, I think even Hitler would see foreign embassies ridiculous as everyone would know they simply echoed German views or stooge for them. Might also be an avenue for Beni and the Allies to talk?

    A pointless incident with the Italian-Americans, but a further illustration of warped logic and primitive values. The Japanese and Germans had so much in common. <_<

    No.9
     
  12. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Just bookmarked that web page about the Yangtze gunboats.

    Yes, the Germans and Japanese had a lot in common, which is why they were allies. Oddly enough, they had very different views on a lot of things. The Germans were overall fairly decent to their POWs, but murderous towards civilian Jews. On the other hand, the Japanese treated their POWs with savage butchery, but rebuffed German requests to load all the Jews in Shanghai on rudderless boats and send them out to sea to die or be sunk. Weird.
     
  13. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    With their quest for 'living space', the Japanese regarded the Chinese as 'untermensch'. While the nazis had a specific quest to destroy Jews, it also applied to gypsies and to a lesser but destructive extent, homosexuals and disabled. However, they made little if any concessions for the Russians. The perceived 'honour code' among fellow soldiers was of course quite different between Germans and Japanese, but they both employed policies of forced labour, usually brutal.

    No.9
     
  14. jennifer holt

    jennifer holt Junior Member

    Sorry for the very late response-I won't insult you all with feeble excuses!

    Thanks for all your responses-no such thing as too much information.

    No. 9 - you asked if my uncle was in the navy, to be honest I really don't know. I do know that he wasn't a member of the armed forces before the war (like most servicemen). You also asked about my 'politically correct' comment. Some people would be of the opinion that my uncle made a racist comment. I personally think that that was the main cause of the war! Not only that, but I think that anyone who served has every right to make comments that some people may find offensive.

    I just sometimes think that 'political correctness' has gone mad sometimes!

    Jennifer
     

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