Her I have two similar seamed cases that are 15mm in diameter, they are made of quite a flimsy copper/tin metal. Each measures approx 4cm to the crimped top. I can't make out any markings on the base, just one circle with line through it on the side. Any information would be quite impressive if nothing else.... Sorry last picture doesn't belong.
They are the remains of .577/.450 Martini-Henry rolled cases. The iron base disc has rotted away. They were originally Ball Mark III rounds, but they look like they have been used to make blanks, in which case they are Blank Mark IV. The small hole in the side of the case is an inspection hole to check that the inner brass cup is correctly in place. Pictures show a variety of rolled case ball rounds and some blanks. The right hand blank is converted from a ball round. Regards TonyE
You guys never cease to amaze me, fantastic information thanks Tony. What era would these may have been used in then? They look pretty primitive casings, possibly the earliest type of cased round?
The earliest British military cased rounds were the .577 inch Snider introduced in 1866. The Martini case was a development of this, being necked down to .450", hence the description .577/.450 inch. They date from the mid 1870s to late 1880s when they were replaced in British front line service by the .303 inch Lee Metford in 1889. They served through countless colonial wars including the Zulu Wars and were the round used at Rourke's Drift in 1879. Although conventional drawn brass cases were introduced for machine guns (Maxim, Nordenfelt and Gardner) the rolled cases continued in use for rifles for many years. There was a separate lighter load for carbines. These rounds were all loaded with blackpowder of course but later cordite loads were introduced. Amazingly, these rolled cases continued to be manufactured in India untl about 1930. The right hand ball round in my picture above came from a packet made at Kirkee Arsenal in India in 1929. Regards TonyE
Well, I have been researching and collecting British military small arms ammunition for the best part of fifty years so one does pick up a few bits of info along the way. Always happy to try to answer any questions of identity or history. Regards TonyE
I thought you might like to see these. They are the labels from the original Ball Mark III rounds and the Blank Mark IV for the Martini-Henry. Also, in the last picture that you posted in error, is the one on the right with the two 20mm Hispano rounds a 15mm BESA? I can't read much of the headstamp. Regards TonyE
Hi Tony, you are indeed the guy to ask when there's a query or two! Thanks Dave but the link didn't work for me? Would be interesting to see. The labels are fantastic to see thank you, they will help when I file these rounds into my collection and add a description. Something for my son to find interest in when he's older. Blanks of this kind are quite common then? The three rounds in the picture are yet to be researched, the one on the right is shorter than the other two at 10cm but is still a 20mm round, all I can make out is 941 and MM the head is very scuffed on this one. I have been collecting mainly WW1 & 2 memorabilia with much enthusiasm for a few years now, but still a complete novice compared to many. I lone many items from my collection to local schools too when they have terms devoted to War history. They love to let off the Air Raid sirens in the playground to demonstrate the home front side of things, they also get the kids to dress up as evacuees at the end of term. Never had that when I was a kid, would have loved the interest of it. I have recently come across a large collection from an estate too, a lovely guy wanted his grandads collection to go to a good home and among the collection was a Howitzer case full of all kinds of ammunition, fuses etc. From German WW1 Kanonzunder fuses to a 1982 OERLIKON 35mm Anti-Aircraft Flak Casing, then on to an empty WW.SUPER MAGNUM 357 Casing! An amazing lot that I'm sure I will need some help identifying certain rounds. I will attempt to add a picture of the box. Uploaded with ImageShack.us Uploaded with ImageShack.us Uploaded with ImageShack.us
While I'm on a roll with the picture uploading, Here are the three 20mm rounds too Uploaded with ImageShack.us Uploaded with ImageShack.us Uploaded with ImageShack.us Treasure Chest? Uploaded with ImageShack.us
The two larger cases are 20mm Hispano. The "K2" case was made by ICI Kynoch at their Standish plant in Lancashire (one of the WW2 satellite factories) and the "BBC" case I am fairly sure was made by Barking Brassware Co. in Essex. There is some confusuion because "BBC" was also used on 20mm Hispano cases by Bridgeport Brass Company in the United States and supplied to the UK on contract, but I am fairly certain from the style and the font of your case that it is made by Barking Brassware. The third case is a bit more problematic. It is not a 20mm Hispano or Oerlikon and I think it is a 15mm BESA that has had a neck separation. The head is too small for an Hispano (as you can see from comparison to the other two) and Oerlikon cases did not include "20MM" in the headstamp but had "OeZ". A 15mm BESA is the right head diameter and usually included "15MM" in the headstamp plus the date of 1941 is about right. It is an odd one though. I will post a comparative picture of a 20mm Hispano and a 15mm Besa case tomorrow if I have time. If there are any other cases in your treasure chest in need of identification post pictures and I will do my best! Regards TonyE
