"An airman of the 1939-1945 war"

I have photographed many unidentified RAF graves around Europe over the years

for example

HOLYHEAD CEMETERY :

airmen RAF buried 27-12-45

a Pilot RAF buried 7-11-44

The ONLY way to check the details, at the moment seems to me to go and look, there must be a CWGC database somewhere though,

 

I have contacted CWGC and referred them to this and the linked threads and asked if they could help put us out of our misery!
Obviously, with a small team and I hope an unusual request, I may not get an answer for some weeks, but they have always followed through on my previous requests, so I'm hopeful they will detail whatever their records contain.

Initially I didn't think the airman was at the foot of a family grave but in its own plot and that being virtually in the centre of England and about as far from the sea as you can get, I certainly didn't expect a link to a body being washed ashore!

There had to be sufficient to identify the body as an RAF crewman, not German, RCAF or whatever and for some way to link it to Quorn for burial.
Nothing makes sufficient sense yet, so I'd dearly love to know if it is possible to get a better understanding of what went on and why.

 

I have read this but still cannot grasp how or why an unknown would be allowed to be buried in a `family` grave to start with ? The family also make no reference to `Donald` on the family headstone do they ?? I cannot see anyone being able to lay claim to an `unknown` as `unknown` means `unknown` A few years ago on here there was a mention of an unknown sgt whose regiment was known and despite there been only one sgt from the regiment `missing` in the area he remains an unknown.
It will be interesting to see the CWGC version and the evidence behind the findings on the RAF site personally I`ll go for coincidence between two . The only way I could see the two connected (If the CWGC is not in its own plot?) would be if the body was initially misidentified ,later evidence confirmed this and the original `named` stone was replaced by an `unknown` version????...but that still doesn't explain why the body was not exhumed from the family grave ......no I`ll stick with coincidence two unrelated graves...until I`m (which I will be!) proved wrong


Kyle


PS Just in case anyone is interested a photo of A H Payne and his grave at Faumont can be found here;-

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/faumont.htm

dedicated from his cousin?

 

I have more than a few Australians who were killed/lost in Europe however they are remembered on headstones with other family members in Australia.

Cheers

Geoff

 

It's what was said above with the Quorn grave, the washed up airmen was identified as the relative of the quorn family during WW2, and buried as such, then info came through that he was in fact buried in France, as the identification was an error hence the airman buried in the family plot is now unknown

 

This is not unique, a spitfire pilot buried in Belgium in a named grave, was subsequently found in the 1990s in his Spitfire in Belgium miles away, The original ID was rescinded and the grave is now of an unknown airmen

S/L George Reid originally thought to be buried at Slijpe, found in his spitfire at Maldegem 30 miles away in 1996, now buried Adegem

It is a possibility that the Slijpe airman is a Belgian Spitfire pilot, but this has not been proved and the grave is marked as Airman 39-45 war

 

Well, no response as yet from the Quorn Baptist Chapel who seem to have been involved at some stage, so will await any response from CWGC.
It seems that the body had the name Payne on some garment, which led the Quorn Paynes to believe him to be theirs.
Following the realisation that AH Payne was buried in France, then the Chapel and CWGC et al were faced with a named headstone for the wrong burial, plus this unknown was in a family plot, possibly difficult to tell which coffin if exhumation was considered.
That's my feeling, a named headstone being replaced by an unknown, whilst not disturbing the grave.

It's all speculation and much too convoluted for my little brain, so I'll just wait to hear and post an update at that time.

In the meantime if anyone does visit Quorn Baptist, they may be able to ask and unravel the story at first hand, as it were.

 

The last post on RAFCommands was Aug 2011 (over 3 years ago) confirming the MOD has confirmed the body is D.M.Payne.
If this was the case CWGC would have updated their data base accordingly

example below of a chaps grave I found in Kingsbury NW London who was commemorated on the Chatham Memorial.CWGC accepted my findings along with church records.
If the DM Payne query had been sorted I would expect the same type of info as the below to have been added to his casualty listing.

N.B.
Recent research has shown that Chief Stoker Greenwood is buried here. Please note Chief Stoker Greenwood's name also appears on Panel 85 of the Chatham Naval Memorial,Chatham where he was commemorated but will be removed when the panel is next replaced.

 

Unfortunately, I looked around the graveyard after being shown inside so it was too late for me to ask about it.

The headstone doesn't look particularly old, to my eyes. So, yes, maybe it is a replacement.

 

They have a museum web site the transcription page lists the Family Grave as A72 and the CWGC as A72B. There`s also Paynes at plots A76 and D42 Transcipts here

http://www.quornmuseum.com/artefacts/pdf/183.pdf

Museum site here

http://www.quornmuseum.com/quorn_village_graves.php

Kyle

 

Thanks, Kyle, I had already linked to the transcriptions when bringing Alfred Cook into possible contention!
Having read the Payne transcription, it corrects slightly what I misquoted earlier...

... his mother died in 1971 (not mid 80's) so presumably afterwards the CWGC may have replaced the headstone from A H Payne to Unknown, rather than DM Payne... possibly to avoid confusion from anyone trying to understand why the unrelated DM Payne was in the grave plot....
What was felt to be sufficient evidence for identity as AH Payne in wartime may not have been sufficient to reliably assign a specific identity to the burial.
Let's just give the CWGC an opportunity to respond in due course. It won't change the world to wait a while longer.

 

While not to take away from the original direction of this thread, I thought it would be of interest to read about the Australian in the RAF crew, Joseph Nugent Palmer Bull.

He was the only Australian to fight on Franco's side in the Spanish Civil War.

Cheers

Geoff

 

PAYNE, DONALD MAYSTON




Rank:

Sergeant

Service No:

902467

Date of Death:

08/09/1940

Age:

19

Regiment/Service:

Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve



149 Sqdn.

Grave Reference:



Cemetery:

QUORN BAPTIST CHURCHYARD

Additional Information:

Son of Sqdn. Ldr. Henry G. D. Payne and Daisy Payne, of Andover, Hampshire.

N.B.
Recent research has shown that Sergeant Payne is buried here. The Commission is in the process of producing a headstone to mark his grave.






Looks like someone has sorted this one out.

 

Yes - this was me.

 

Just to fill you in on what's been happening over the past few years.
I came across a newspaper clipping in a scrapbook compiled by an elderly family member.
The clipping referred to the placing of the headstone in memory of the unknown airman.
Flight Sgt A H Payne was a distant cousin of my father which got my interest.
Clara Payne (A H Payne's mother) could never bring herself to acknowledge that it was not her son buried in the family grave and it wasn't until after her death that a stone was erected in memory of the unknown airman.
I picked up on the story about 7 years ago - checked for missing airman attached to the same squadron as AHP but drew a blank. I then widened my search and came across the incident involving D M Payne. The timeline of events - the plane coming down over the channel and the body washing up on the Essex coast were spot on. I came to the conclusion therefore that a case of mistaken identity had occurred which resulted in the wrong Payne being buried up here in Quorn.
As far as I can ascertain DM Payne was the only son of an only son.
Notes of my research were passed on to the War Graves Commission about 6 years ago. They recently contacted me to confirm my findings and to advise that a rededication service would take place sometime soon - fittingly 75 years after the events

 

Well done Mike

regards
Clive

 

This seems like a fine job, Mike. So, well done in bringing this airman's commemoration to an appropriate conclusion.

It is a difficult process persuading the CWGC to amend their records even when all the documentary evidence is presented to them. Six years is a long time to have a referral to finally get a positive result.

 

Ignore. Answered my own question Sorry
Kyle

 

They acknowledged my findings initially but said that they had other ongoing enquiries which took precedence - I recall a mass grave from WW1 in the news.

 

Just to update you on this particular case. A new headstone has today been placed in the Church graveyard (I'll get a better photo another day) A rededication ceremony is being arranged for early next month