"An airman of the 1939-1945 war"

How many 'Unknown' CWGC headstones, like the one below, in Quorn Baptist chapelyard, are there in the UK? They don't seem to be recorded on the CWGC database.

Oddly, Alfred Hubert Payne, whose name can be seen on the gravestone behind the 'Unknown' one, also died on 27th May 1940; however, he's buried at Faumont Churchyard, 121 miles SSE of Lille.

 

Hello Bernice there are a number in the UK
your unknown below


QUORN BAPTIST CHURCHYARD

United Kingdom

Leicestershire

0
This burial ground contains the grave of an unidentified airman of the Royal Air Force from the 1939-45 war.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2072880/QUORN%20BAPTIST%20CHURCHYARD


Finchley,London
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/42303/EAST%20FINCHLEY%20CEMETERY%20AND%20ST.%20MARYLEBONE%20CREMATORIUM

 

Hi Bernice in Silloth (Causewayhead) Cemetery there are 2 unknowns, but Silloth was used by the RAF as a base.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2068318/SILLOTH (CAUSEWAYHEAD) CEMETERY, HOLME LOW

Historical Information
During the early months of the 1939-1945 War a section in the south-eastern corner of the cemetery was set aside by the local authorities for the burial of service personnel, which was gradually extended to cover Sections S and R and half of Section P. This is now the War Graves Plot.

Most of the airmen buried here were serving at the Royal Air Force Station at Silloth, where there is a large aerodrome. Many of the bodies were recovered from the sea, and two could not be identified.

Can't seem to copy and past link to Silloth (Causewayhead) from CWGC.

 

Most of the airmen buried here were serving at the Royal Air Force Station at Silloth, where there is a large aerodrome. Many of the bodies were recovered from the sea, and two could not be identified.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2068318/SILLOTH%20%28CAUSEWAYHEAD%29%20CEMETERY,%20HOLME%20LOW

 

I have contacted Geoff to see if he can have a look on the Search Engine

 

There has been mention before of Known Unto God Headstones and her is one link.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/55114-known-unto-god-cwgc-headstones/?hl=%2Bknown+%2Bonly+%2Bgod+%2Bgraves

There must be Information Held by the CWGC as they must know the numbers produced and where the Headstones are located.

As far as I am Aware even though the full Crews bodies may have been recovered, only those that could be formally identified have a Name etc engraved.

I know this to be the case with a Lancaster Crew that were shot down at Peenemünde and the Lancaster remains in the lake just outside the present day Museums grounds.

The Crew were buried by the edge of the lake and after the war were all reinterred in Berlin War Cemetery on Heerstrasse. Some are Known Unto God as they could not be positively identified.

Regards
Tom

 

Usually the CWGC will record the historical information relating to a cemetery.Included in the historical information will be the background to the cemetery relating to matters such as the creation of the cemetery and the background to the reason why burials took place there.

Also included will be the numbers of the British Commonwealth burials identified and those unidentified.These two categories are also included to cover foreign nationalities interred in the cemetery as appropriate.Some cemeteries where CWGC casualties. are interred may not carry this information,both in the UK or abroad,where a small number casualties have been interred in civilian cemeteries.

The unknown airman interred in Quorn churchyard will have been probably been a victim of an incident or flying accident at a nearby RAF unit in the East Midlands.For some reason,his remains could not be identified....it might have been a multiperson incident or accident. The CWGC do not declare identify for casualties unless a positive identification can be established.

Regarding Sergeant A H Payne,a prewar RAF regular, the commemoration on a parent's grave would appear to be a common practice.He was a member of No 53 Squadron which suffered in the German onslaught in France and at the time of his death,the squadron was based at Andover,equipped with the Blenheim IV and had just been withdrawn from France where it was undertaking a reconnaissance role.

I think the CWGC have made a typo error in identifying Faumont as 121 miles SSE of Lille.It would be 12.1 miles,ie 20kms from Lille.

 

My fault for not keeping up with the times and using kilometres.

It's so strange. There's one CWGC headstone there - 27th May 1940 - and two commemorations on family gravestones - A.H. Payne, died 27th May 1940, and Pilot Officer Horace James Cook, died 26th May 1940. Three WW2 casualties and two consecutive days. I wonder what the odds on that would be?

 

Bernice

The typing error is not important only perhaps so if a special journey was to be made to visit a grave but even so prior research should throw up the anomaly.

As regards the daily rate of war deaths,it would ramp up as the intensity of war progressed.Geoffs search engine should highlight this as a source of reference.

 

I'm wondering if Berenice is actually asking if a positive ID might be made now?
Here we have a body of an RAF man, and it must be known how many RAF casualties could be for this grave?
The date would seem to be the date his body was recovered, so he could have been a casualty from that day or earlier, and surely there cannot be too many "Unknowns" lost in the middle of England around that date?

Most RAF aircraft of that period were no more than 5 seaters, is it really impossible to suggest a least a few likely candidates?
His body wouldn't have been washed up so far inland, so an inquest must have known where the body was recovered from.
How many aircrew were lost in say that area in up to a month before? The coroner must have been able to make some comment of a likely time of death, be it weeks, months or days beforehand. How could it be stated that he was "RAF" and not German, Polish, French or whatever?

How many single seat aircraft were lost, in say the month, from 27 April to 27 May 1940?
How many multi seat aircraft where not all the crew can be accounted for?

There are 171 RAF Names on Runnymede for that month period, so surely it must be one of them?
Surely not all those 171 could be considered as baling out/falling near Quorn?

But then maybe I'm over estimating the abilities of Pals on here to narrow the search down......?

 

From The Battle Of France Then And Now - Peter D. Cornwell

Monday 27 May 1940

53 Squadron

Blenheim L8735

Shot down by Oberfw Labusga of 6./JG3 and crashed near Faumont north of Douai at 6.35am

Crew

P/O. P F C. Villiers-Tuthill +
Sgt. D B. Mearns +
Sgt. A H. Payne +

 

And now we have DNA testing.

 

The British authorities have used DNA and I would think that the Australians used the technique also to identify the dead recovered at Fromells.The authorities always cite that he procedure is expensive and it would appear there is little chance of the technique being widely used.

However the procedure is a common tool used in processing US dead recovered from the Pacific theatre of operations,then identified at its DNA laboratory on Hawaii.Apparently, their results have been highly successful.

I think I am correct in saying that all the recovered unknown dead from the Vietnam war have been identified through DNA techniques going as far as identifying the Vietnam war Unknown Soldier...caused a rumpus from his family when the award of the Congressional Medal of Honour awarded to the causality as the Unknown Soldier, was claimed back by the US military authorities......there must be an update on this case.

 

To answer Clive's PM, Geoff's Search Engine has no information on unidentified burials. CWGC database would have an entry for all headstones, but only named records are available on their online search function.

You could try here...

http://www.********.co.uk/cgi-bin/cemetery.php

...entering 'unidentified' in the Historical field, but it only gives the first 1000 results and it is tedious to search through these.
It seems there are a number of Merchant Naval unkown burials, presumably bodies washed in were often hard to identify.
You could ask CWGC, they should have an answer, or you could wait until the WW2 burial docs are scanned - even then a tedious job to find and search through all the pages.
Or I could hack into the data that I used to create the search engine link above... Asking CWGC may be easier!

Happy New Year everyone - I've been off line for a bit!
Now I'm back, unpacked (to quote Laura Nyro!)

geoff

 

There is only that single CWGC headstone in the Chapelyard
There is a transcription available on the net for Quorn Baptist Church.
http://www.quornmuseum.com/artefacts/pdf/183.pdf

If you scroll down to "A38 Cook Jane Elizabeth wife of Walter Everton died Dec 29th 1937 aged 63 years. Pilot Officer H J Cook RAFVR killed in action May 26th 1940 son in law of the above. Walter James Everton died Nov 13th 1953 aged 79 years.
which produces
COOK, HORACE JAMES. Rank: Pilot Officer. Service No: 77351. Date of Death: 26/05/1940. Age: 35.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 22 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Panel 7. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
Additional Information: Son of Redfern Hill Cook and Emma Cook, of Bedford; husband of Edith Irene Cook.

So we have a family grave in Quorn Baptist chapel yard referring to a missing RAF airman from 22 Squadron who was missing in action on 26 May 1940......

which leads to....

22 Squadron brought the Bristol Beaufort into operational service; receiving the first aircraft in November 1939 and, after an intense work up at North Coates in Lincolnshire, the Squadron resumed operations in April 1940, beginning with mine-laying sorties. The Bristol Beaufort was the only monoplane produced for the Royal Air Force that was designed from the start to satisfy the dual role of general reconnaissance and torpedo bomber. The first aircraft flew its first operation on 15/16 April 1940, but in May was grounded for a month while a problem with the engines was fixed. It moved to RAF Thorney Island where torpedo operations were resumed in August.

During 1940 and into the summer of 1941 only two squadrons, No. 22 and No. 42, were equipped with the Beaufort. As the best land based torpedo bomber available, the two Beaufort squadrons were in constant demand, frequently operation in small detachments from points all around the coast. The Beaufort was used in many of the dangerous attacks on the main elements of the German surface fleet, prominent amongst them the Gneisenau, Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen. During one attack on the Gneisenau Flight Officer Kenneth Campbell was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross after making a very low level attack against the enemy ship.

25-26/05/1940: Gardening (mine laying) Type: Bristol Beaufort I Serial number: L4450, OA-F. Operation: Gardening. Lost: 26/05/1940
Wing Commander Harry M. Mellor, RAF 16097, 22 Sqdn., age 37, 26/05/1940, missing;
Flying Officer Frederick R. Jamieson, RAF 37855, 22 Sqdn., age 27, 26/05/1940, missing
Leading Aircraftman Alan D. MacKenzie, RAF 623407, 22 Sqdn., age 24, 26/05/1940, missing
Pilot Officer Horace J. Cook, RAFVR, 22 Sqdn., age 22, 26/05/1940, missing
Took off 25/05/1940 23.00 hrs from North Coates. Lost without trace into the North Sea, off Heligoland, Germany. The crew are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.


MELLOR, HARRY MANNERS. Rank: Wing Commander. Service No: 16097. Date of Death: 26/05/1940. Age: 37.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force 22 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Panel 3. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
Additional Information: M.V.O. Son of Salusbury Manners Mellor and Daisy Mellor; husband of Diana Marian Mellor, of Much Hadham, Hertfordshire.

JAMIESON, FREDERICK ROBERT. Rank: Flying Officer. Service No: 37855. Date of Death: 26/05/1940. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force 22 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Panel 6. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
Additional Information: Son of James and Mary A. M. Jamieson, of Leith, Edinburgh. M.A. (Edin.).

MACKENZIE, ALAN DUNCAN. Rank: Leading Aircraftman. Service No: 623407. Date of Death: 26/05/1940. Age: 24.
Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force 22 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Panel 23. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
Additional Information: Son of Finlay and Maud Ethel MacKenzie, of North Walsham, Norfolk.

Sources: CWGC and Ross McNeill, Coastal Command Losses of the Second World War, 1939-1941

So, could it be possible that a body was recovered from the sea on 27 May 1940 and "someone" connected the loss of the Beaufort, but was unable to positively ID as HJ Cook, but the Everton family took him as the son in law?

Not enough to legally satisfy the CWGC and authorities perhaps, but sufficient for the Everton family to claim him as either their son in law or a crew mate.....?

Intriguing case, Berenice, but better brains than mine should get involved! There should be a coroners report/inquest and perhaps something in the local papers of the time which may give some further answers....

EDITED to add the following...

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?2899-Airman-Missing-in-Action-May-1940/page1
concludes in the final post:-
Just to add that confirmation that the body in the Quorn grave has finally been confirmed by MoD as that of Sgt Donald Payne, 149 Sqdn Wellington, lost 8/9 Sep 40. For those close to the north east Essex area, a BBMF Spitfire will conduct a flypast over the Frinton-on-Sea foreshore as a tribute to the crew of that Wellington (P9245) at 2.30pm on Friday 26 Aug (2011) - weather permitting!!



The thread mentions a previous RAFCommands thread but I couldn't trace it, but the synopsis was that an airmans body had been washed up on the Essex coast near Frinton and that clothing carried the name FS (F/Sgt?) Payne and was therefore assumed to be AH Payne.

The CWGC were alerted by the Church deacons after AH Paynes mother had died aged 101 in the 1980's.......
That explains that the CWGC headstone is at the foot of the Everton/Payne grave plot and NOT in a separate grave for an unknown airman.

Personally I don't feel that is the final chapter, it "feels" wrong, that the CWGC would have a "known" identity and yet not amend the headstone in 30 years, or have updated their database?

I have emailed the Quorn Baptist Chapel to see if they can throw more information our way.

 

So the body in the grave is that of Donald Mayston Payne but it was believed at the time that it was the body of Alfred Hubert Payne. Fascinating linked thread on the various Paynes, Kevin, thank you.

I don't think I saw anywhere in the linked thread that Donald Mayston Payne was a relation of the Quorn Paynes.

PAYNE, DONALD MAYSTON


Rank: Sergeant
Service No: 902467
Date of Death: 08/09/1940
Age: 19
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
149 Sqdn.
Panel Reference: Panel 18.
Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
Additional Information: Son of Sqdn. Ldr. Henry G. D. Payne and Daisy Payne, of Andover, Hampshire.

 

PAYNE, DONALD MAYSTON


Rank: Sergeant

Details of the above loss...

8-9 September 1940

149 Squadron
Wellington IC OJ-W
Op. Boulogne

Took off from Mildenhall at 0014 hours. Crashed into the sea off Clacton, Essex.
P/O. Parish managed to swim ashore.

Crew.

S/L. L V. Andrews +
P/O. C W. Parish
Sgt. J L. Brown +
Sgt. N J. Bull (Australia) +
Sgt. D M. Payne +
P/O. W G. Searles +

Source - RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol.1 - W R. Chorley.

Tasked to bomb invasion barges being assembled in Channel ports.

 

For Ref

D.M.Payne Panel attached from Runnymede.

It would appear that this has still not been resolved because he is still commemorated at Runnymede


PAYNE, DONALD MAYSTON

Rank:

Sergeant

Service No:

902467

Date of Death:

08/09/1940

Age:

19

Regiment/Service:

Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve



149 Sqdn.

Panel Reference:

Panel 18.

Memorial:

RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL

Additional Information:

Son of Sqdn. Ldr. Henry G. D. Payne and Daisy Payne, of Andover, Hampshire.

 

I'm sure Berenice will be along to add whatever might help.
I agree that there doesn't seem to be any familial connection between the two Payne families, except that one believed the body to be "theirs" from the name in the clothing, whereas it now appears (????) to be that of Donald Payne....

I assume the next logical step is to enquire of the CWGC just what information they have, as they appear to be "uncertain" as they have not amended the headstone, their database or the Runnymede panel.... and this since the mother of Alfred Payne died back in the 1980's....

Only then may we be able to understand what's happened here... Do we have a body, is it Donald Payne (presumably not Alfred!) or could it be Horace James Cook or somebody totally different? As Berenice says, 3 airmen all within 2 days of each other at one tiny cemetery with a single Unknown CWGC headstone. Hopefully that makes Quorn Baptist unique - I couldn't stand the strain of there being more!!

It's an intriguing case, but I haven't a clue what the end result will be!

 

You know, I thought the CWGC headstone was interesting as I hadn't come across another one anywhere else but I had absolutely no idea that there was such a convoluted story behind it. Great research, guys.

Maybe it's up to D.M. Payne's descendants to approach the CWGC before it can all be straightened out.