Am I bovvered?

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by Ron Goldstein, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    A few years ago I posted a story on the BBC WW2 Peoples War (as it was then known). For those of you who are not familiar with the site, it is now a sealed archive and the stories can no longer be edited or comments added


    The original story; BBC - WW2 People's War - Diary Entries 11th April 1945
    described a period lasting about two weeks prior to what was virtually the last battle in Italy, namely the break-through of the Argenta Gap.


    When I first wrote the article, some sixty odd years after the event, I had yet to discover the 4th Queen's Own Hussars Regimental Diaries. So, while the dates in the story were factually correct, i.e. taken from my own personal diary, I had no confirmation as to the geographical features of the area.


    My diary, still with me today, said this:

    Wednesday 11th. April 1945
    Woken at 4 am to go into Lugo area with Recce party. Stood at X roads for a couple of hours. Area lousy with mines. Late breakfast when tanks arrived.


    The story on the BBC site, based entirely on my memory of the day, said this:


    On April ll th I went with Lt. Walmsley by jeep to Lugo, the fortified town that is surrounded by water and to which access is made by many small bridges. We stopped the jeep on the outside perimeter and looked across one of these bridges at the town that we could see in front of us.
    The trouble was that the bridge had obviously been hit by shell fire and was in a bit of a mess. It did, however, look as if we could get across on foot through the rubble.
    With its back to us a notice board had been fixed in the centre of the bridge and Walmsley said to me: "Nip over there and see what it says." Without any further thought I did this, and after I had reached the spot and read the notice I called across to Walmsley in what I hoped was not too shaky a voice: "It says 'Achtung Minen!'. I had, in fact, just walked through a Jerry minefield and was now faced with the unpleasant task of trying to remember exactly where I had placed my feet on the journey in. The fact that 58 years later I am able to write about the incident means, of course, that at the time I must have been blessed with either a good memory or good luck.

    Now this is my problem and my reason for posting this article.

    My memory, on which I relied upon to describe the scene, led me to believe that the bridge was one of many, that Lugo was surrounded by water and that it was necessary to cross the bridge to gain access to the town.

    However, when I now use modern maps of the area plus GOOGLE EARTH it soon becomes painfully obvious that Lugo is not surrounded by water and that the bridge to which I refer must have been purely one over the Santerno river and this is confirmed by an excerpt from the Regimental Diaries shown below.

    April 11th - 0600 - B Sqn joined North Irish Horse in sweep northwards to area 3345, during which 30 PoW were taken. Own casualties 2 ORs killed and 1 wounded. 1400 - Tac HQ and A Sqn moved to outskirts of LUGO. 1630 - A Sqn 2Tp and 4Tp carried Gurkha Rifles, 1Tp and 3Tp carried RFF Rifles in an advance to the banks of the river SANTERNO. 2Tp and 4Tp went extremely well, unfortunately after 1Tp and 3Tp dropped their Infantry and were turning around they encountered A/Tk mines. Six carriers of 1Tp were damaged and one of 3Tp. No personnel casualties. C Sqn still in reserve.

    The question then is this.


    Having now done some belated research on my story I realise that my description of Lugo is patently incorrect but, because the BBC site is now sealed, there is no way to edit the story.


    Should I be like Kathy Tate on TV and just say "Am I bovvered?" and am I forced to let the story stay for evermore for the future confusion of researchers in years to come ?

    Comments please

    Ron
     
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I have a strong feeling, Ron, that while your intentions about changing it are good, it will be extremely hard "fight city hall" and get it changed. I would certainly give it a try but I don't think you are going to be even remotely successful contending with the inertia of that large organization.
     
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    That's an odd one...:confused:

    They still have some administration there I assume, the peoples war homepage still has a 'contact us' page.
    I don't know just how sealed the site is but surely they can still respond to special requests, particularly from people who contributed a lot?

    As to whether you should actually change it Ron, that's perhaps a different matter. Someone could come along working on comparing historical memory to actuality and find it a good illustration that the two can vary.
    (I'm sure anyone really serious who read your erroneous account would already be, or would rapidly become aware that there was an error, so the historical record is probably safe from anyone other than the Dilettante?)

    It could be said that the site's intention was to capture the memories of people in 2003-2006, and that inaccuracies and little mistakes are a valid part of those memories, historical accuracy coming second?

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  4. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Adam

    In the two years during which the site was at its most active I was a site helper and had many a battle with the authorities myself over information that was being placed on the site that was factually incorrect.

    Whenever I (and several of my friends) complained we were told that "perceived histories" were of equal value to those that were historically correct and that the way was always open to us to correct any mis-information via the added "comments" .

    What the BBC never took into account was the present situation when the archives became sealed.

    Ron

    ps

    I remember having at least one success in correcting mis-information :)
    BBC - WW2 People's War - Victory Celebrations, 8th June 1946
     
  5. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    I would try and correct it if you can Ron. Not sure what you can do if it's sealed thou.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It's a tricky one isn't it, as long as they stayed true to that interpretation of the archive as very much a 'social' memories project then they've perhaps maintained it's integrity as an archive? Warts & all.
    The discussion at the bottom of each account could be seen as 'notes' by other researchers & interested parties and very much an addendum to 'the main event' of preserved memories, and there's many other places as far as the BBC is concerned where further note-taking can go on.

    It kind of gets to the heart of the subjective & objective views of history, objectively we can find a lot of the clear 'who, what, when, where' type of information elsewhere, but the People's war archive, while also enhancing that side, added hugely to the subjective/emotive/human pool of history. Perhaps the errors of memory really are an integral part of that side of the record?

    Does anybody know, was it Lottery funded? It must have a clear 'charter' of it's aims and intentions laid out somewhere?

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Adam

    I have just posted this question on the BBC Message Board.
    BBC - MESSAGE BOARDS - History - Wars and Conflicts


    Hi

    As an old time poster and site helper to the BBC WW2 Peoples War Archives I have recently posed a question on another WW2 site that perhaps can be answered here.

    The link to my query is here:

    www.ww2talk.com/foru...

    Many thanks

    Ron



    I will keep you posted as to their reply

    Ron
     
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Adam

    I have just posted this question on the BBC Message Board.
    BBC - MESSAGE BOARDS - History - Wars and Conflicts


    Hi

    As an old time poster and site helper to the BBC WW2 Peoples War Archives I have recently posed a question on another WW2 site that perhaps can be answered here.









    The link to my query is here:

    www.ww2talk,com

    Many thanks

    Ron



    I will keep you posted as to their reply

    Ron



    Good grief Ron -
    you may have just opened the floodgates of a series of Hollywood epics on how the Italian campaign was won with Tom Cruise acting as the intrepid Ron Goldstein of the 4th Hussars... you might get a royalty now and again !
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Nice idea, if they ever did let you back in Ron you could edit your rank to 'Field Marshal' every time it's mentioned :D.
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    This is just my own twopennoth but I wondered if you'd considered annotating your story -explaining how your present-day research has changed your understanding of the situation as you recorded it at the time - rather than simply correcting it?

    Good point from the BBC chap.
    As has been said before, it is interesting to see difference in what you thought happened from memory as to what did from Official records.
    Compared to some bloomers from history , Ron, your's in fairly minor.
    I rememeber once reading that an Historian said to a Great War Veteran,
    "Just because you were there doesn't mean you know what was going on."
    Although that sounds like a put down I can see what the Historian was trying to say.

    I can't even remember the names of villages & towns I was in 20 odd years ago in Germany & Denmark.
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    That seems a reasonable response Ron, but very well put nonetheless and I think you are right in wanting to correct it.

    Tom I'm not quite sure what you mean - perhaps you might elaborate further?
     
  13. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Ron,
    Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
    BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery

    The 6th Battalion Grenadier Guards was in the 22nd Guards Brigade


    That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
    22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
    6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

    A minor point I know but are we bovvered?
     
  15. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ron,
    Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
    BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery



    That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
    22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
    6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

    A minor point I know but are we bovvered?

    Hi Owen

    You may very well be right, but I am a tad puzzled as to why you have initially addressed the query as if it was for me to make a decision.

    Am I my "Peter's" keeper ? :rolleyes:

    For the benefit of others, Peter, quite apart from being a notable contributor to this site, is a valued and long standing friend and more than capable of defending his own wicket.

    I shall forthwith bring this matter to his attention :p

    Cheers

    Ron
     
  16. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Ron,
    Now should Peter G try and get this quote altered as it isn't quite correct either.
    BBC - WW2 People's War - Attack at Salerno and Sighting the Cassino Monastery

    That is not strictly true as in '42 it became 200th Guards Brigade and then renumbered as 201st Guards Motorised Brigade.
    22nd Guards Brigade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The 6th Gren Gds only ever fought as part of 201 Gds Bde never in 22 Gds Bde.
    6GG joined 201 Gds Bde in Syria in Oct '42.

    A minor point I know but are we bovvered?

    Owen

    Ron has drawn my attention to the above. Actually 22 Guards Brigade had five redesignations (the definitive one was that of 20 March 1941, a month after GHQ was formed), but one should not confuse redesignations for tactical or intelligence reasons with brigade titles. If you go to the Wikepedia to the page you referred to you will see that it is headed, correctly, 22nd Guards Brigade. I am sure that if you were to ask any veteran who served in 201st Guards Motor Brigade Group or 201st Guards Motor Brigade he would tell you he was in the 22nd Guards Brigade.

    I suppose I could have said, more accurately, '22nd Guards Brigade (redesignated 201st Guards Motor Brigade)' but it's a little late now.

    (I have attached the relevant page from the official Orders of Battle - Second World War 1939-45, for which I have a 5 year copyright licence agreement from the Cabinet Office - Her Majesty's Stationery Office to do so.)

    Peter
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Thanks for showing us that Peter.
    So actually it's real name is "22nd Infantry Brigade" as that what it was called in February 41.
    As you say all other "names" are just redesignations .

    As the original unit was captured and a new one formed surely that has to be called 201st as the original one didn't exist anymore.

    Same as the "new" 51st Highland Div was created out of 9th Highland Div.
    Nobody refers to that by it's original title.

    I've only ever seen the Bde called 201st in anything I've seen, including my shorter Grenadier Guards History.
    As to your other point, why would a soldier in 6th Gren Gds refer to it as 22 Gds Bde when to him it was only ever 201st, he wouldn't have know it by it's original title?


    I suppose it's not that important in the grand scheme of things but nice to chat about .
     
    von Poop likes this.
  18. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    Thanks for showing us that Peter.
    So actually it's real name is "22nd Infantry Brigade" as that what it was called in February 41.
    As you say all other "names" are just redesignations.
    Actually Owen it is more complex than that in this case.

    As you know, when wore broke out there was only the regular army and the territorials. The regular brigade in Egypt was called The Cairo Brigade under the command of Lt-Col E.G. Earle. On 20 September 1939 The Cairo Brigade was redesignated as 29th Infantry Brigade, but on 3 October it was redesignated again as 22 Infantry Brigade. Then on 2 September 1940 it was redesignated Headquarters Matruh Fortress and ceased to exist as an Infantry Brigade. What was reformed on 11 February 1941 in Egypt was a brigade HQ with the temporary title 22nd Infantry Brigade which on 20 March became the full 22nd Guards Brigade.

    It then went through a whole series of redesignations (200th Guards Brigade, 200th Guards Motor Brigade Group, 201st Guards Motor Brigade Group) until its surrender at Tobruk on 20 June 1942, only to be revived in Egypt with the title 201st Guards Motor Brigade, although in fact it was organised as a Brigade Group.

    In the official Order of Battle 22 Infantry Brigade has a separate entry (i.e. independent of 22nd Guards Brigade), but if you look up either 200th Guards Brigade or 201st Guards Motor Brigade you are directed to see the O of B of 22nd Guards Brigade. The Wikipedia entry is correctly titled.

    Peter
     
  19. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Actually Owen it is more complex than that in this case.

    Knowing the British Army, why doesn't that surprise me. ;)
     

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