Allies vs USSR 1939-1941

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by legadore, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. legadore

    legadore Junior Member

    OK, Germany invades Poland and England and France declare war on Germany. USSR invades Poland....why did a declaration of war not exist between England and France and the USSR for the USSRs' aggression vs Poland? Or against Finland?
    Anyone ever view the "Why We Fight" videos from WWII? USSR invasion of Poland is not mentioned....
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    In practical terms the USSR was somewhat far from the UK (the UK comprises England and those Other Territories, you know, Scotland, Wales, the Ulster ;) ) and France, so it would be a bit difficult to go there and boink them on the head...

    As for Finland, do you mean for or against? There was this project-of-a-plan to send troops to Finland against the Soviets, but more pressing circunstances came before.
     
  3. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    First of all - the British (and French IIRC) guarantees to Poland only applied to invasion from the West.

    Then of course the was the whole issue of getting there - it was to be many months before the specially arnoured BBs that Churchill wanted to bust the RN's way into the Baltic would be ready...and it was a problematic exercise anyway.

    Contrary to most accounts however - there WAS british aid on its way to Poland, in the form of three ships carrying bren gun carriers, Hurricanes and munitions; a couple of yeara ago a poster on AHF itemiosed the cargos and gave the vessel names One entered the Baltic but had to turn, IIRC the other two didn't get as far as the Baltic.

    It was the longterm plan of the Western Allies to supply Poland through Romania...but they didn't play ball, and they disarmed the Poles who evacuated across their border, including taking possession of a large part of the Polish Air Force for themselves!

    In respect of the USSR - well, the British Press certainly fulminated against the Soviets as "Hitler's allies", and Churchill found an ally in Gen. Ironside who wanted to get at the Soviets via Finalnd. Za, the plan got a LOT further than just a project by the end of things I.E the end of the Winter War; the first British troops were aboard ship for the first movements to Norway and then into Sweden while the Cabinet frantically tried to get the Finns to hold on....and to actually ASK for British help to legitimise the incursion. But they didn't and reached terms with the Soviets.

    Nevertheless, there were actually several generations of the Scandanavian Alternative planned before a "stunted" version of it was launched at the beginning of the second week of April 1940 - the best thumbnail sketch of the several months' of planning and political machinations surrounding the on-again, off-again idea is in two chapters of Kersaudy's Norway 1940, where the whole thing is put into its context of subsequent events in WESERUBUNG.

    There's also the aspect that has been discussed before on the board that the British and French separately - then together - planned/discussed a number of military actions to prevent Soviet materiel reaching the Germans - and in March 1940 this boiled down to -

    ...the French suggestion that the British use THEIR submarines in a WWI-style Black Sea operation through the Dardanelles to attack Soviet shipping;

    ...that some attempt by mining or whatever be made to halt the Danube traffic;

    ...and that Baku should be bombed. This last got the furthest of all the ideas to fruition on the eve of the invasion of the West -

    Operation Pike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ...although the British never lost sight of the Danube traffic disruption idea, even tho' in a year's time it was to stop being Soviet materiel reaching Germany that way; IIRC, Paddy Fermor came to the Kreipe kidnapping operation on Crete fresh from an attempt to "float oil mines down the Danube" according to Billy Moss in Ill Met By Moonlight.
     
  4. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    I would have thought the simple answer would be if the UK and France had declared war on Russia, the USSR may well have become part of the Axis and that would have been bad.
     
  5. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Then of course the was the whole issue of getting there - it was to be many months before the specially arnoured BBs that Churchill wanted to bust the RN's way into the Baltic would be ready...and it was a problematic exercise anyway.



    Specially armored battleships? :):)

    Do you have any more info on them? Sounds very interesting and it is the first I've heard of them. I'm guessing they would have used the Rs ?

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Perhaps The Phylo means the Courageous class battlecruisers :)

    The Courageous-class ships mounted four BL 15-inch Mark I guns in two twin hydraulically powered Mark I* turrets, one each fore (designated the 'A' turrets) and aft (the 'Y' turrets).[7] These turrets were originally intended for a Revenge-class battleship that was canceled shortly after the war began.[8] The guns could be depressed to −3° and elevated to 20°; they could be loaded at any angle up to 20°, although loading at high angles tended to slow the gun's return to battery (firing position). The ships carried 120 shells per gun. They fired 1,910-pound (866 kg) projectiles at a muzzle velocity of 2,575 ft/s (785 m/s); this provided a maximum range of 23,734 yd (21,702 m) with armour-piercing shells.[9]
    ...
    The 18-inch BL Mark I gun carried by Furious was derived from the 15-inch Mark I gun used in her half-sisters. It was mounted in two single-gun turrets derived from the twin-gun 15-inch Mark I/N turret, and her barbettes were designed to accommodate either turret in case problems arose with the 18-inch gun's development. The gun could depress to −3° and elevate to a maximum of 30°. It fired a 3,320-pound (1,510 kg), 4 crh armour-piercing, capped shell at a muzzle velocity of 2,270 ft/s (690 m/s) to a distance of 28,900 yards (26,400 m). It could fire one round per minute and the ship carried sixty rounds of ammunition. The turret's revolving mass was 826 long tons (839 t), only slightly more than the 810 long tons (823 t) of its predecessor.[13]

    HMS_Courageous_WWI.jpg

    Four 18" guns firing at 1rpm! I'd like to see the hit probability odds :D

    I am aware of British plans "to get at the Soviets" but their praticality seems doubtful :)
     
  7. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    In his speech to the nation on October 1, 1939, Churchill - who was at that time First Lord of the Admiralty - condemned Russia's invasion of Poland, but with some equivocation.

    He said: 'Russia has pursued a cold policy of self-interest. We could have wished that the Russian armies should be standing on their present lines as the friends of the allies in Poland, instead of as invaders.

    'But that the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace.'
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    In his speech to the nation on October 1, 1939, Churchill - who was at that time First Lord of the Admiralty - condemned Russia's invasion of Poland, but with some equivocation.

    He said: 'Russia has pursued a cold policy of self-interest. We could have wished that the Russian armies should be standing on their present lines as the friends of the allies in Poland, instead of as invaders.

    'But that the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace.'


    By the start of October, the full ramifications of the "hidden clauses" weren't necessarily apparent yet...the occupation of the Baltic states for instance was in the future; only four days after this speech, the Latvians were to give in to Soviet pressure to allow them to establish bases on Latvian territory :(

    Dave - yes, the R's...here's a nice little article on Operation Catherine - Jason Stevenson
     
    Dave55 likes this.
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    The Courageous class was a joke, they were indeed meant for forcing the Baltic but in the wrong war :D
     
  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    The Courageous class was a joke :D

    Uh-oh! You've made him very unhappy!

    "Speed is armor," according to him :)
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well IIRC, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact and part of the terms of it pledged each country to remain neutral in the event of an attack on either country by a third party. Which explains why the Soviets were not at war with the United Kingdom or France.
    It also identified Spheres of influence for each nation, which of course condemned the Baltic states to the full "attention" of Stalin and the Soviet Union.
     
  12. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    It also identified Spheres of influence for each nation, which of course condemned the Baltic states to the full "attention" of Stalin and the Soviet Union


    ...but this was part of the hidden clauses/Secret Protocol that wasn't revealed until 1945 - thus Churchill didn't know of them when he made his speech.
     
  13. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Another dimension of Posts 11 and 12 was the German-Poland 10 year non aggression pact signed in January 1934 which Hitler intended to initiate a drift in Polish and French relationships. France had been a virtual protector of Poland since its rebirth at Versailles and Hitler honed his foreign policy with the hand of friendship towards Poland to negate this relationship. It is notable that the German Army military leadership were somewhat disappointed since Poland was seen as the ogre to the East and not Russia which was seen in very much in favour by the German Army.It allowed Hitler to eventually get on with the business of the bringing in Austria into the Third Reich via the 99.59% favoured Anschluss and take Czeckoslovakia without any concern from Poland.Indeed Poland took its share of the carcass of Czechoslavakia as did Hungary on the prompting of Germany.

    Even up to the outbreak of war and despite the Polish Government being aware of the uneasy situation with Danzig and the Corridor,Poland were nearly drawn into the renewal, before its time, of another 10 year non aggression pact.Hitler tried to sell the pact on the basis of that it would be beneficial to Poland to know that its western frontiers and the Danzig Corridor status would be guaranteed.Poland are recorded as deciding to think the matter over.

    As time was to prove,pieces of paper meant little to Hitler no matter who were the signatories.
     
  14. L J

    L J Senior Member

    There is another reason :Poland did NOT declare war on the SU,thus,why should B+F do this ?
    And,I could be wrong ,but,did the diplomatic relations not continue between Poland and the SU ?
     
  15. Stephen

    Stephen Member

    The British guarantee only applied to war with Germany. After Hitler broke the Munich agreement it was thought vital that the rest of Eastern Europe did not go the same way as Czechoslovakia. The guarantee was offered to try and keep Poland out of the German camp. Prior to the German demands over Danzig and the Corridor relations between Poland and Germany had been good.

    No aid was send through the Baltic as it would have been a kamikaze mission. There was some aid dispatched intended to go through Rumania but whether anybody asked the Rumanians is unknown. The Germans did ask or tell the Rumanians not to allow any aid in. The British had no intention of dispatching more than a small amount as they took the view Poland would fall in six months and any aid sent would fall into German hands. When the Poles asked for financial help before the war they found it difficult to get an answer and never received anything of any use.

    The Polish embassy in Moscow was closed in 1939 as Poland for the Soviets no longer existed. Diplomatic relations were re-established in 1941. The Polish army was ordered not to resist the Soviets as resistance was futile. Large numbers were taken prisoner and most of the officers murdered. The British ambassador in Moscow thought the Soviets had killed the officers but the British government decided not to say anything. I think its called appeasement.
     
  16. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    The SU established relations with the Polish Government in Exile (in London) following the German invasion in June 1941. Stephen, what should the Allies have done in order to avoid the accusation of appeasement?

    And is this another of those threads where the original post asks a question and is never seen again?
     

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