All you airplane experts

Why would Northern Ireland be a big deal? If you defeat Britain, then defeating Ireland would be academic right? I don't understand your point morse.

The Germans would have to capture Northern Ireland otherwise it would be a base of operations against the mainland. Operations from Air and Sea could have been mounted from NI. This would cause the Germans problems as would intrusions into Southern Ireland

 

I would agree that fitting drop tanks to Bf109s would have made little difference to the fighting over SE England, for the reasons already stated elsewhere. However, the Luftwaffe would have been able to maintain its bomber attacks on NE England and Scotland if its 109s had been able to escort them all the way - and that would have required a drop tank. Such a circumstance would have spread Fighter Command way too thin and may have resulted in a German victory!

 

I would agree that fitting drop tanks to Bf109s would have made little difference to the fighting over SE England, for the reasons already stated elsewhere. However, the Luftwaffe would have been able to maintain its bomber attacks on NE England and Scotland if its 109s had been able to escort them all the way - and that would have required a drop tank. Such a circumstance would have spread Fighter Command way too thin and may have resulted in a German victory!

That would invovled moving fighters away from other areas to Norway, aslo even if extended range, there would still be only a certain area that the fighters could cover. that would mean that factories etc could be moved to other parts of scotland and northern england to avoid the bombing raids

 

October 16th 1939.
Ju88s were caught near the Forth Bridge. Three had been said to have been shot down into the sea including a Heinkel 111. One of the pilots was fished out of the sea and taken to the Naval hospital at Rosyth. The squadron involved was 602. It don't know where the Luftwaffe bombers were based.
February 9th 1940.
The first enemy to be brought down on British soil. The Heinkel crossed the coast near to North Berwick after having been engaged by Spitfires. The Heinkel landed wheels up on a hill behind the town. The rear gunner died later of his injuries.

 

What about Scotland? Why would the Germans want to attack there? Were there factories there? Wouldn't they have RAF bases there as well? (I don't know much about North Britian in WWII).
I hope this puts things into perspective.
On the 15th August 1940, the Luftwaffe attacked the North-East of England from bases in Aalborg, Denmark and Stavanger in Norway.
The 50 Ju88s from Denmark were after the airfield at Driffield, which they bombed. The Luftwaffe thinking was that all the RAF fighters would be in the South-East of the Country and the attacks would be fairly unopposed. They found out to their cost that this wasn't true.
The raiders from Norway were to attack airfields in the Tyne-Tees area. The 65 Heinkel 111 were to be escorted by 21 Me110s. Because of the range the 110s were fitted with belly drop tanks and it was also said that they left out the rear gunners as the RAF had no fire from the rear. 1 in 3 of the 110s fell to the guns of the RAF fighters.
The Heinkel 111s were being so badly mauled by the RAF that they got rid of their bombs and made for home.
The RAF didn't lose one fighter in this action.
With attacks later in the day on the South-East the Germans lost one of the highest numbers of the Battle in one day.
It's true to say that if 109s had belly tanks then this action would have been a lot harder for the defenders.

 

It's true to say that if 109s had belly tanks then this action would have been a lot harder for the defenders]

But as Dr Boog pointed out, there was not enough fighters to protect the various bombers involved in the campaign against 11 group, so it begs the question; where would they get the additional fighters?

 

I hope this puts things into perspective.
On the 15th August 1940, the Luftwaffe attacked the North-East of England from bases in Aalborg, Denmark and Stavanger in Norway.
The 50 Ju88s from Denmark were after the airfield at Driffield, which they bombed. The Luftwaffe thinking was that all the RAF fighters would be in the South-East of the Country and the attacks would be fairly unopposed. They found out to their cost that this wasn't true.
The raiders from Norway were to attack airfields in the Tyne-Tees area. The 65 Heinkel 111 were to be escorted by 21 Me110s. Because of the range the 110s were fitted with belly drop tanks and it was also said that they left out the rear gunners as the RAF had no fire from the rear. 1 in 3 of the 110s fell to the guns of the RAF fighters.
The Heinkel 111s were being so badly mauled by the RAF that they got rid of their bombs and made for home.
The RAF didn't lose one fighter in this action.
With attacks later in the day on the South-East the Germans lost one of the highest numbers of the Battle in one day.
It's true to say that if 109s had belly tanks then this action would have been a lot harder for the defenders.
Well, I think this was my initial counterargument that drop tanks make the fighters vulnerable especially if they are engaged early. But the question I had about Northern Ireland to morse was that if you take Britian then you take all the isles. My thinking is that even with the Irish mainland, since you have bases in Scotland you simply bomb away any base of operations there. It is too small to be able to withstand any consistent bombing raids as its fighter bases would be overwhelmed and attrician would be a problem not only for pilots but also for aircraft since manufacturing in Scotland would have been halted or continued for the production of German Spitfires and Hurricanes. Am I over looking something here?

 

But the question I had about Northern Ireland to morse was that if you take Britian then you take all the isles.

Since Ni had at the time, their own parliament and prime Minister, then it does not follow that because the mainland fell, then Ni would also fall.

It is too small to be able to withstand any consistent bombing raids as its fighter bases would be overwhelmed and attrician would be a problem not only for pilots

Ni would still cause problems for the Luftwaffe as they could not attack all parts of the country at the same time.

 

But as Dr Boog pointed out, there was not enough fighters to protect the various bombers involved in the campaign against 11 group, so it begs the question; where would they get the additional fighters?

The Luftwaffe had to partly depend on the Me110 as a fighter, which wasn't up to the job. The fact that later on in the Battle, Goring made the Me109s fly close escort to the bombers. Which gave the 109s a major disadvantage.

 

Since Ni had at the time, their own parliament and prime Minister, then it does not follow that because the mainland fell, then Ni would also fall.
I am still not following you here. If in the event that the British/Scottish mainland fell to the Germans and the Germans became occupiers, they are still at war with <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Britain</st1:place></st1:country-region>. If the British exiled to <st1:country-region w:st="on">Northern Ireland</st1:country-region> and the government of <st1:country-region w:st="on">Ireland</st1:country-region> gave them refuge, then they would become the enemy of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Germany</st1:place></st1:country-region> for harboring hostiles. They would lose their neutrality. If <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region>, limited to the pre invasion production limitations and resources managed to conquer the <st1:country-region w:st="on">Britain</st1:country-region>, then wouldn’t conquering <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Northern Ireland</st1:place></st1:country-region> be far easier? I mean <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Ireland</st1:place></st1:country-region> is only about 1/4 the size of Britain/Scotland and in 1940 they were not nearly as industrialized, am I right? I guess I have always thought of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Ireland</st1:place></st1:country-region> as a very sparse country with few major roads and few large cities.



Ni would still cause problems for the Luftwaffe as they could not attack all parts of the country at the same time.
Why do you have to attack it at the same time? We didn’t attack Fortress Europe at the same time or even German occupied <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">France</st1:place></st1:country-region> for that matter. Couldn’t they just take out all of the defenses and simply choose a spot to invade? <o:p></o:p>

 

If Germany invaded the British mainland the govt would exile to Canada. Ireland wouldn't be a factor anyway.

 

If Germany invaded the British mainland the govt would exile to Canada. Ireland wouldn't be a factor anyway.

There was plans to send the Govt into exile in Canada but the fighting was to continue for as long as possible.

 

There was plans to send the Govt into exile in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> but the fighting was to continue for as long as possible.
Interesting thought. Since the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> was in the hyper-obstinate leave-us-out-of-it mode, wouldn't FDR have offered the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> as a place of exile? Doing so could have brought home the issue of severity of the problem. I am not saying that <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region> would not have eventually attacked the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> but declaring war on the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> and then attacking the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> would have been far more preferable to attacking <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> and conquering it and gaining an invasion foothold on the North American contenient.

As I have said many times before, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Britain</st1:country-region> falling would have been the worst of all scenarios, not just because she was a very powerful ally but the strategic importance of waging the war against <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region> in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>. I remain convinced that had the RAF had fallen then <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region> could have successfully invaded <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Britain</st1:place></st1:country-region>. It might not have been easy but it could be done. So I don’t know if Churchill’s “Never in the field of human conflict” speech was restricted to the people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Britain</st1:place></st1:country-region>. As far as I am concerned he could address that to the whole free world. <o:p></o:p>

 

Interesting thought. Since the <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on">US</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> was in the hyper-obstinate leave-us-out-of-it mode, wouldn't FDR have offered the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">US</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> as a place of exile?

Since Canada was technically under british Rule, then it could said that the Government in Exile was operating from British Territory. In addition, King George was the head of state of canada and it would not do for him to move to a "neutral" country when there was a country who was providing a great deal of men and material to the war effort.

As I have said many times before, <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on">Britain</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> falling would have been the worst of all scenarios, not just because she was a very powerful ally but the strategic importance of waging the war against <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on">Germany</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> in <ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Europe</ST1:PLACE>.

Many people at the time recognised that what you say was the case and help was forthcoming as Britian was seen as a base to launch the kiberation of europe which was duty bound to come at some point.

But, here we have to raise a interesting point, since the war, many Germans and academics have said that "Operation Sealion" was part of a deception plan surrounding Barbarossa.

 

Going back to the original topic, I found this in the BofB special done by Hawk Magazine and it would indicate that the germans had started using fuel management techniques near the end of the battle

On 29 August Starr led No 253 Squadron down to Kenley, and I followed with a Flight of nine remaining Hurricanes and pilots. The most interesting combat I had (of the very few I fought) took place on 30 August when, just before midday, I took off leading the Emergency Section of three Hurricanes to intercept a raid. In fact we were put on to a Luftwaffe fighter Balbo in the belief it was a bomber formation. It was flying at 17,500 feet, and made up of five rows of fighters. The whole mass of aircraft stretched fore and aft as far as the eye could see. The route the Balbo took was to Selsey and then on a circuitous course via <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Rochester</st1:place></st1:City> and out to sea near <st1:City><st1:place>Dover</st1:place></st1:City>. The Me 109s were flying unbelievably slowly, so much so that the Hurricanes rapidly overhauled them. Unknown to me one of our Section had been shot down, having made a pass at a lone Me 109 on the fringe of the Balbo but which proved to have a weaver and was, therefore, not so "lone"! I led the Section into the flank of the mass of Me 109s and turned with the tide, opening fire on them right, left and centre. It was a strange experience enjoying a margin of speed over Me 109s that seemed to be floating along just above stalling speed - they probably were! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Battle of Britian – Reflections of a squadron Commander by Grp Capt T. P. Gleave CBE RAF (Ret’d) quoted in The Hawk Magazine <o:p></o:p>

 

Going back to the original topic, I found this in the BofB special done by Hawk Magazine and it would indicate that the germans had started using fuel management techniques near the end of the battle

Interesting. I know in October the Germans started using the 109s as hit 'n' run bombers. I'll look it up but I think they were using 250kg single bombs. the results were less than good. But the RAF had a hard time defending against them. The RAF had to start using standing patrols.

 

Interesting. I know in October the Germans started using the 109s as hit 'n' run bombers. I'll look it up but I think they were using 250kg single bombs. the results were less than good. But the RAF had a hard time defending against them. The RAF had to start using standing patrols.

the BF109E could only carry a 250KG bomb, which would effectively reduce its range. However, they were effective because of the nuisence value. Later on the Luftwaffe used FW190 in the same role

 

The Bf 109 E already flew with 300L drop tanks in 1940!

 

The Bf 109 E already flew with 300L drop tanks in 1940!

The info that I had seen was not until November?? 1940 on the E-7.