All you airplane experts

For all the experten on aircraft. Could the Germans have modified the Me-109 for using fuel drop tanks during the Battle of Britain? Do you think it would have changed the course of the Battle?

 

For all the experten on aircraft. Could the Germans have modified the Me-109 for using fuel drop tanks during the Battle of Britain? Do you think it would have changed the course of the Battle?

it would have taken a major refit of the fuels system to allow for a drop tank. However, this would have extended the time-over-target available to BF109Es and meant that the they could have indulged in more combat with the RAF.

As for it causing a major change to the outcome, I some how doubt that it would have influenced the outcome. The Luftwaffe had not made any attempt to change their tactics during the batle.

 

For all the experten on aircraft. Could the Germans have modified the Me-109 for using fuel drop tanks during the Battle of Britain? Do you think it would have changed the course of the Battle?

I am not an expert however, from something I read quite a long time ago, they were not thinking "drop tanks" for fighters at that time.

What was the average time for fighters over land......35-40minutes?

Their escort role would have definitely altered as their protection capabilities would have been greatly enhanced.

The perfect early example is the Zero with 94 gall drop tank it had a range of nearly 2,000 miles. 1200 base & 800 drop.

I do not know when the Zero was first fitted however they had them at Pearl Harbour.

The Zero was much lighter however, "in principle" usage by Germany IMO would have strained further the abilities of the RAF to counter the Luftwaffe.

 

I am not an expert however, from something I read quite a long time ago, they were not thinking "drop tanks" for fighters at that time.


The BF109 E7 +8 carried a drop tank. Hurricane IIc carried drop tanks

 

The BF109 E7 +8 carried a drop tank. Hurricane IIc carried drop tanks

My meaning was en masse.

Drop tanks are not mentioned in 109 designs until after BoB however I am not an expert. BoB were E-4.

E-7 (Similar to E-4N but with optional external fuel tank)
E-7/U2 (Ground attack variant of E-7)
E-8 (long range version of E-1 using drop tank installation of E-7, four MG 17)
E-9 (Recon version of E-8, drop tank, camera equipment, two MG 17)

 

My 2 cents...I'm thinking that the 109s would have considerable greater operational time as well as distance. Had the Luftwaffe concentrated on devastating the RAF airfields rendering them useless, then they perhaps would have gained air superiority. This is no easy task on enemy territory, especially with the Channel separating the Luftwaffe from closing distance to target. Then we get into carriers which is another thread. Could early versions using drop tanks, consume the drop tanks first then drop and go with onboard supply. Thought being drop fuel more vunerable to fire. Two 20mm cannon more effective than 4 MG 17? Perhaps another thread?

 

The problem with the drop tank is that once you get to the channel there is a good chance you will have to jettison it soon because the British had radar and could see you coming and also patrolled the channel. If they jumped you or scrambled on you (which they would do more than not) and you don't drop the tank, the extra drag and weight would slow you down and reduce your manueverability to a point you would probably get shot down. I have never heard of a fighter dogfighting with a drop tank. It's suicide. So, you could use it in the trip from the base in France to the channel which as I understand was not that far so no matter how big the tank is, it really isn't going to extend your range or flying time in enemy territory.

The only way the Germans would win the BofB is to quit bombing useless targets and keep after the RAF. The RAF was beaten on a war of attrician. Even though they got the best of the Germans, the Germans had more trained pilots.

 

The only way the Germans would win the BofB is to quit bombing useless targets and keep after the RAF. The RAF was beaten on a war of attrician. Even though they got the best of the Germans, the Germans had more trained pilots.

Stuffy Dowding said that the biggest mistake was to switch to bombing London.

The first days of "Eagle Attack" quickly revealed the Luftwaffe's weaknesses: the inadequate defensive armament of . its bombers; the Me 110 escort fighter's lack of speed and manoeuvrability; German fighter pilots' inexperience in escort duties (they were more used to free chase); and the inadequate range of the fighters, and thus their short combat time over target. This last factor also limited the range of the bombers (and the escort fighters, which needed fighter protection themselves) -in daylight — particularly in the case of the Ju 87 dive bombers, | which were slow and very vulnerable when pulling up after the dive. The number of Me 109s was insufficient, because each bomber, dive bomber and escort fighter unit theoretically needed fighter protection of three times its own strength. The short&shy;comings of the Luftwaffe became quite evident on "Eagle Day", 13 August, and on 15 August, when Luftflotte 5 launched the first and only attack across the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:place>North Sea</st1:place>, suffering high losses. The Germans believed that northern <st1:country-region><st1:place>Britain</st1:place></st1:country-region> had been depleted of fighters, and were surprised to find this was not true.


Dr Horst Boog, The Luftwaffe and the Battle of Britian, article which appeared in Probert, Air Cde, henry and Cox Sebastian (joint Eds), The Battle Re-thought - A Symposium on the Battle of Britian, Airlife, London, 1990, P25

In addition, by Oct 1940, Fighter Command was in fact over-established in terms of pilots.

 

A very interesting topic.
Would drop tanks made a difference in the BOB?
In October 1940 the new variants of the Me109 came into play, they were the 109E7 and the E4/N. Both had an uprated engine with the first having attachment points for a long range tank.
If the Luftwaffe had these earlier they could have made a lot of trouble for the RAF.
Me109s would sometimes go on free hunts, trying to get RAF fighters into the air so they could shoot them down fighter to fighter. Usually these free hunts happened before a raid by the German Bombers, so the skies were clear. The RAF commanders would ignore these fighter jaunts by the Luftwaffe because they were so costly.
If the Germans had long range tanks then they could have penetrated a lot deeper into the South-East of England, giving fighter commmand no choice but to intercept. The Germans had far more aircraft and pilots, so they could than make good their losses.
Also, it took the RAF fighters a long time to gain height, which the 109s could do in safety over France. In dogfighting height is everything. Even with RDF it would still take the RAF time to get the height they would need without getting bounced (the Hurricane longer than the Spitfire).
You have to remember that the second most feared thing for a Luftwaffe pilot (after getting shot down) was ditching in the Channel, with a drop tank this wouldn't have been as critical.

 

I'm no expert either. But as has been said, the Luftwaffe tactics were flawed. They should have kept hitting the airfields and left London alone.

 

Two thoughts, Excellent point about height Gage and Wouldn't drop tanks allow the Luftwaffe to mass larger raids with fighter support also allowing fighters to come longer distances for other fields to mass up for a raid? This would allow a defensive fighter dispersal pattern to intercept Allied raids.

 

The only way the Germans would win the BofB is to quit bombing useless targets and keep after the RAF. The RAF was beaten on a war of attrician. Even though they got the best of the Germans, the Germans had more trained pilots. Stuffy Dowding said that the biggest mistake was to switch to bombing London.
That's saying the same thing. The useless targets I was referring to were the civilians. There is no tactical advantage over bombing civilians in fact it just filled the Brits with more resolve. The Germans deviated from Operation SeaLion which was to eradicate the RAF first and had almost done so when they switched the tactics of bombing London and let up off the RAF.

The thing I would like to know is if the bombing of Berlin in retailation for the accidental bombing was intended to draw that response from irrational Hitler or just a serendipitous change in the weather? Did Sir Winston know it would have such a profound effect on Hitler as to make him lose his priorties?

 

Two thoughts, Excellent point about height Gage and Wouldn't drop tanks allow the Luftwaffe to mass larger raids with fighter support also allowing fighters to come longer distances for other fields to mass up for a raid? This would allow a defensive fighter dispersal pattern to intercept Allied raids.
The problem with that is that if the radar sees you on a course that direction they would scramble the planes at those air fields. It really does not do much for you to attack an airfield when the fighters are in the air.

The British radar created the illusion that the British had more planes because they were always able to intercept German formations which is statistically impossible without a lot of patrolling aircraft all over Britain. Radar had to be one of the most profound inventions to come about in WWII. The RAF could attack, land and refuel/rearm and takeoff again and find you on your return trip. Also, if you bail out you can return to combat where the German pilots were lost to an angry old Brit with a pitchfork calling him a bugger (whatever that means). In addition, crash landings you could recover the plane and have parts. Talk about home-field-advantage.

Without taking out the RAF you don't have a chance to take the Isles. You can dispute about the probabilites of taking it even if there were no RAF if you want but what is indisputable is that without taking out the RAF you have no chance.

Remember the truism which came into being in 1939 "Air Power determines the victor of all modern war".

 

I am a noob at aircratft

 

The British radar created the illusion that the British had more planes because they were always able to intercept German formations which is statistically impossible without a lot of patrolling aircraft all over Britain. Radar had to be one of the most profound inventions to come about in WWII. The RAF could attack, land and refuel/rearm and takeoff again and find you on your return trip. Also, if you bail out you can return to combat where the German pilots were lost to an angry old Brit with a pitchfork calling him a bugger (whatever that means). In addition, crash landings you could recover the plane and have parts. Talk about home-field-advantage.


There was also the fact that the Luftwaffe enginma had been broken and as the luftwaffe sent out its op orders by Enigma, it meant that Dowding received a copy of the daily planned operations of the various luftflotte!

The RAF also had the advantage that they could use aircraft from the other groups. Squadrons could commute from their stations to 11 group airfields and fly back at night, this however proved to be very stressful on the pilots but for the short time it was required, it was very helpful.

 

Without taking out the RAF you don't have a chance to take the Isles. You can dispute about the probabilites of taking it even if there were no RAF if you want but what is indisputable is that without taking out the RAF you have no chance.


What should also be borne in mind, is the fact that the germans would have to capture more than maninland Britian. Northern Ireland would have been able to aceapt any fleeing units of the Armed forces and allow them to regroup, supples from America could still land and convoys still set sail.

The problem for the germans would have been the irish Free State, were it to side with the British then the problem would be magnified many fold. For it would not be possible to invade NI without drawing the South into the conflict.

 

What should also be borne in mind, is the fact that the germans would have to capture more than maninland Britian. Northern Ireland would have been able to aceapt any fleeing units of the Armed forces and allow them to regroup, supples from America could still land and convoys still set sail.

The problem for the germans would have been the irish Free State, were it to side with the British then the problem would be magnified many fold. For it would not be possible to invade NI without drawing the South into the conflict.
Why would Northern Ireland be a big deal? If you defeat Britain, then defeating Ireland would be academic right? I don't understand your point morse.