Aircrew Named "Idris", WW2, Possibly KIA 1941/2?

Following a bit of a miracle connected with my other enquiry about my Great Uncle Flt Sgt James W Love (d1944), I wonder if I might beg another miracle of research here, please?

James W married in Uxbridge, Middx, in 1940; his Best Man was another airman (and his best friend), first name of Idris, surname uncertain at this time...and that's my 'challenge'.

James & Vera (Hall) produced a son, Alan, in 1942 - and given his Geordie nature of following Northern honours, James got into hot water by giving his son Alan the middle name of Idris...so I'm taking a quantum leap of a guess that the naming was possibly in honour of his Best Man/best friend, presuming that the original Idris may have perished in action between the marriage in 1940, and Alan's birth between March & June 1942...maybe?

Looking on the CWGC website, I've found a couple of possible candidates on the war dead list, but I suspect it might be only this chap:
Idris Price, 971525, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve who died on 12 July 1941 Age 24

My question here, is if any kind members can confirm if this gentleman might have died in action with Bomber Command ( possibly even with 78 Sqdn)... Or am I really clutching at straws with this one?

Any pointers that anyone can offer would be extremely well received by both myself, and Alan's widow & daughters!

 

Hi,

Have you obtained a copy of his marriage certificate? there is a good chance the best man was also a witness and will have signed it.

Price isn't in Chorley's BC Roll of Honour, there was an Idris Berry at 102 and 142 Squadrons but he survived the war, he was my grandad's skipper on about dozen Ops, I don't think he was ever with 78 Squadron though.

Rgds

Pete

Edit extra info

 

hello Barry
Panel from Runnymede attached
PRICE, IDRIS Rank: Sergeant Service No: 971525 Date of Death: 12/07/1941 Age: 24 Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve Panel Reference Panel 50. Memorial RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL Additional Information:
Son of David Daniel and Margaret Price, of Penmaenmawr, Caernarvonshire.





Idris Price is mentioned in the link below
might be worth you contacting them

[SIZE=x-small]1939-1945[/SIZE] [SIZE=x-small]Bees Albert
Cooper Robert
Dyer W. Herbert
Evans Emlyn
Evans Emrys
Griffiths Griffiths J
Hall, Robert E
Horton Leonard
Hughes Charles T
Hughes Ernest
Jones Arthur T
Jones Bobbie
Jones Harold E
Jones John H[/SIZE] [SIZE=x-small]Jones John W
Jones Robert S
Jones Thomas J
Lee Eric
Lewis Elfed
Price Idris
Radcliffe Michael
Roberts Gwilym
Roberts Kenneth
Roberts Stanley W
Williams Nancy
Williams Sydney
Williams William[/SIZE]

http://www.penmaenmawr.com/historyWarMemorials.html

 

Thanks, Gents!

I doubt if the wedding certificate is available - their son Alan's widow is curious about the Idris connection, so I doubt if she (or any other family member) would know - hence my query here...

Thanks for the link, CL1 - I'll follow it through...

 

Hi Barry,

It's definitely available. James Love married Vera Hall in the 2nd Quarter of 1940.

To order a copy of the marriage certificate from the GRO you'll need this info:

Regards,

Dave

 

There are no Bomber Command losses during the night of 11-12, the day of 12, or the night of 12-13 July including an airmen named Price.

I believe Idris Berry who flew with 142 Squadron was a Canadian.

 

Sgt Idris Price is listed in the GRO RAF Overseas deaths as No.6 OTU but on this day the only loss recorded for the unit was a Blenheim that blew a tyre at RAF Brize Norton.

In July 1941 however it was decided to split the unit.

No.6 OTU would transfer to RAF Thornaby and become a Coastal Command Operational Training Unit initially with Blenheim but quickly changing to Hudson.

Some of the crews and instructors would remain at Andover and form No.42 OTU which would train Army Co-operation Crews on Lysander and Blenheim.

The whole month of July 1941 for No.42 OTU ORB (AIR 29/679) is covered in a few lines of admin details. No flying specifics are given.

However there was a Form F1180 raised for a Blenheim loss from No.42 OTU on the 12th July 1941. Sgt I Price, 971525 is given as the pilot in command.

The attached F1180 is copyright RAF Museum and should be credited as such if used elsewhere.

Regards
Ross

 

Wow! Thank you so very much for those pictures & the information - I just hope we're on the RIGHT connection for this little "investigation!

I'll definitely sort an application for the Marriage Certificate, 'alieneyes', although that might be best achieved by James' grand-daughter, as she's a direct blood relative; we'll go for it anyway, and get back to you all ASAP.

If it isn't the right Idris, I'll have to start all over again, but thanks so much for your help, guys - really appreciate it!

 

Very well done Ross!

 

Just in case there may be a photographic image on archive of Sgt Idris Price, I've uploaded a section of James W Love's wedding photo (as provided to me, by his grand-daughter) - the chap standing behind the happy couple being the man in question...

Any ideas, anyone?

 

The chap in the photo wears the half-wing brevet on a non-pilot. As Ross mentions in Post 7 Price was the pilot of the lost Blenheim.

The photo isn't clear enough to make out what his trade is.

 

Very true, but this was taken in mid-1940 when both James W Love and Idris were still in training - I think they were both stationed in/near Uxbridge at that time and became close friends, though I don't know what level of training they would have been taking at that time; James W went on to be promoted to Flight Sergeant, Mid-Upper Gunner of a Halifax in 78 Squadron, so it's entirely possible that Idris in the photo might have been diverted to Pilot training and got promoted to Sergeant, too...

I just don't have access to such records to be sure, and that's why I'm trying to trace this one through, in order to simply close that family "page".

 

June 19, 2016 - - Hoboken, NJ -- USA
Hello All

Idris Price was declared missing and presume dead. He few out with navigator Sgt. George Andre Joseph RICHARD on July 12 1941 and did not return. Lost on Wireless and Photographic exercise. RICHARD was a member on No 6 OTU and RCAF.

The link is:
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/RunnymedeDatabase/?q=No.6+Operational+Training+Unit

The trick is to look up RICH under No.6+Operational+Training+Unit. It listed the plane Blenheim T2123

I also found RICHARD service card on Ancestry.ca. which indicated the flight was an exercise.

In Google Books I found a book on Blenheim and did a search for T2123. I found Loris L. PRICE

Loris L. PRICE and Idris Price have the same service number 971525.

 

Warner in his book - The Bristol Blenheim A Complete History - gives the following for the above loss.......

12 July 1941 - Blenheim IV T2123 - 60 OTU. Failed to return from photo exercise over the sea. No trace found. Sgt. I. Price, Sgt. J. Richards and Sgt. W. Dickins missing, presumed killed.

 

Just in case there may be a photographic image on archive of Sgt Idris Price, I've uploaded a section of James W Love's wedding photo (as provided to me, by his grand-daughter) - the chap standing behind the happy couple being the man in question...

Any ideas, anyone?




An interesting wedding photograph which reveals some interesting facts.


Idris Price appears to be shown as a Corporal Air Gunner which fits into the date of the wedding.On 27 May 1940 it was decided that the minimum rank for aircrew would be Sergeant after AM Portal declared in the previous December that the parity would be addressed.Apparently the AM were aware of the value of the WO/AG and AG roles but had some difficulty in convincing the Treasury of it.They were more concerned of the affect of increased pay on government expenditure with the numbers requiring assimilation to the new rates of pay of Sergeant.While the decision for WO/AG and AGs to be granted the rank of temporary Sergeant,the order was not promulgated until 27 June 1940 under AM order AMO A416/40.

iIdris Price was categorised as RAFVR,having joined the RAF during September 1939 after the RAF cut off date of 3 September 1939.He must have remustered from AG for pilot training and was at his OTU training stage when he FTR from a training exercise.

Corporal Love joined the RAF as a regular in October 1925 direct from civilian life,location unknown.At the time of his wedding he appears to be wearing on his right lapel,the RAF badge relating to medical disciplines.....a metal badge with a serpent intertwined around a sword.Accordingly he would carry the trade of say Medical Orderly or other medical trade within Trade Group M.

Daily pay for a Corporal in Trade Group M with 3 years service in the rank would receive 6 shillings a day.At sometime later Corporal Love volunteered for aircrew and remustered to an AG and after passing out progressed from Sergeant to F/Sgt,the rank he attained when he FTR on 31 March 1944 while serving with No 78 Squadron out of Breighton,Selby on the disastrous raid on Nuremberg

Per Adua Ad Astra.

 

Hello All,

Thank you for postings and replies. I especially what to thank RAFCommands for posting the front and back of the AM Form 1180 for Idris PRICE. This was the confirmation for me that he was the Pilot. Thank Peter Clair for posting the names for the flight crew. This was there reason for my search on RICHARD.

 

Many thanks for "reviving" this thread - very interesting, indeed!

It turns out that Corporal James W Love was initially, in fact, an Ambulance Driver/Attendant (hence the medical badges - I have another image of him lounging on the bonnet of the ambulance), and yes, he volunteered for Aircrew duties some time between his wedding and May 1942 - another photo of him and his wife Vera and their baby Alan reveals James' AG wing, so my next quest is to work out where he served between that date and his loss in March 1944...

The thing with Idris is that I am uncertain of whether the chap in the wedding photo IS Idris Price or not (he might also be the other chap sat on the ambulance roof, a year or two earlier?) - I was given the name by another researcher, to try following up. If Idris Price did step up to retrain as a pilot, it would have had to be somewhat brisk training to jump from AG to Pilot in such a short time, would it not? I have a nervous feeling that I might've begun something of a "red herring" thread, here...unless you chaps know different?

..And Harry - are you sure of James' joining date of 1925? That would have made him just 5yrs old! Maybe 1935, then?

 

It was suggested three years ago that you obtain the marriage certificate to try confirm his name, was that obtained? These are completelyvopen to the public to be ordered and you can very simply do so via gro.gov.uk

Also the church register might contain the same information.

 

I didn't need the marriage certificate, as I already knew the family names & details, etc - I had already accessed the parish records some time before posting this thread.

My main enquiry was about Idris, as James gave his son Alan the middle name of Idris, evidently in memory of his close friend - and the more that you chaps add by way of detail, and the more I review this story, the better I perceive the connections and viability of the story...

Given some other details (all now mixed in, above), it's entirely feasible that James and Idris might have been stationed together at Uxbridge - perhaps as Idris began his aircrew training, where James was already an Ambulanceman - and their friendship may have developed from there (who knows - maybe Idris was injured in a training sortie/exercise/accident, and maybe James carted him off to sick-bay, or something?).
Taking that a logical step forward, James asked Idris to be his Best Man when he married Vera at Uxbridge (they're all known facts), and whilst Idris perhaps went on to re-muster as Pilot-Under-Training, James may well have taken inspiration from that "promotion" to volunteer for Aircrew duties, taking Air Gunner as the accepted fastest way into the air?

All hypothesis, certainly, but not as far-fetched as might be otherwise thought.

It could also logically follow that after Idris' demise in the Blenheim loss, James would have felt the loss acutely enough to honour his friend when baby Alan was born less than a year later (the naming actually infuriated Vera, as James hadn't told her he was going to do that - he just went off to the Registrar's office and returned with the birth certificate completed so!)

All this would leave me to research now is the career path/service record from James' wedding through to his "conversion" training to Halifax gunnery in late 1943, then move to 51 Sqdn or just one Op, then transfer to 78 Sqdn... (and I can't help but wonder if he might have already served one full tour with 78 in that time before being rested, becoming Master Gunner by training other aircrew, then volunteering for a second tour?). Maybe...

 

Barry,

I think you ought to get access to F/S Love's service record and that should reveal the date his entry to the service,his postings and remustering to aircrew,subsequent training and operational units.

The other point is the question of his birth/entry to the Royal Air Force as a regular....we know he was categorised as RAF as indicated by his CWGC details.His service number was 549261 which was in the block 505001-549999 issued to those entering the service in October 1925 as civilian recruits.This is at odds with what you state was his birth year.

I must say when I saw the Corporal AG in the wedding photograph,said to be Idris Price and being aware of I P's service number, 971525,it passed through my mind that here was a Corporal AG who attained this status after 10 months service,joining as RAFVR in September 1939.(Until 27 June 1940,AGs could be of a rank from AC2 AC1 and Corporal....I have never seen an Sergeant AG prior to 27 June 1940.)

Further,there was no structural training for AGs at this time and attaining gunnery proficiency was usually completed by "on the job" training on the squadron...on shortfalls in crewing,groundcrew tradesmen volunteered on an ad hoc basis,usually at short notice.It may well be that the Corporal AG was guest/friend at the wedding and had no connection with Uxbridge which was a non flying unit and was,in fact,a RAF regular.

When Corporal Love volunteered for aircrew,his gunnery training would be structured and conducted through its Bombing and Gunnery Schools and Air Gunners Schools,then on to an Operational Training Unit before being posted to an operational squadron.As an remustered airman,I would think Corporal Love would receive dispensation from attending an Initial Training Wing prior to the B and GS....a far different situation from the first year of the war when AGs were a complete different entity from the rest of their crew.

Late addition,Master Gunner as a designation was not introduced by the AM until 1950 when rank restructuring took place and Master was introduced to replace aircrew Warrant Officer so that a Warrant Officer Pilot would be assimilated into the designation Master Pilot and a W.O Air Gunner would be a Master Gunner.

Referring to F/S Love's assumed role in training other AGs, if this occurred,his role would be one of "Instructor"