Air gunner training timeline... anomalies?

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by RE864CoyPaul, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. RE864CoyPaul

    RE864CoyPaul Active Member

    Hi all, I'm busy deciphering my great Uncles service record and the early part of his training is throwing up some questions regarding timings and order of training, that seem to defy what I believe to be convention?! I was wondering if anyone could shed any light please? Below is a brief timeline that includes the anomalies and then my queries underneath. Any help is greatly appreciated!
    Thanks.
    Paul


    22/9/41 – Weston Super Mare

    - ACH/Wop/AG (Aircrew holding, Wireless Operator/Air gunner)

    23/9/41 – Posted from WSM to Reserve

    9/12/41 – Posted from Reserve to no. 3 RC (Reception Centre) – Padgate, Warrington

    12/12/41 – Posted to 10 (Signals) Reception centre – Blackpool

    2/4/42 – Posted to Signal School (Assuming in Blackpool too?!)

    17/5/42 - Ex remuster to W/Op AG (AC2) 56.8% (Air craftsman 2, not sure what % is? Test result?)

    30/8/42 – Posted to 1 (Observers) AFU (Advanced Flying Unit) – RAF Wigtown, Scotland

    19/11/42 – Posted to 7 Signal School (London – South Kensington)

    24/3/43 – Posted to SS Blackpool (Assuming same as one in ’42?)

    27/3/43 – ACH under AG (Air Crew Holding under Air Gunner)

    9/4/43 – ACRC – Only one I can see that’s operational at this time is the one at Regents Park/St Johns Wood, London (which is why maybe there isn’t a number for it)

    1/5/43 – Posted to 14ITW – Bridlington



    Query #1 – From other experiences I’ve seen, usually the basic training is done straight away. Why would he have gone on reserve straight away? More men than training positions?


    Query #2 – no basic training but straight into reception centre for 2 days, then signal reception at blackpool for 4 months – is this where he’d do basic training? Or was it straight into signal training (Morse, radio etc)?


    Query 3 – Posted to AFU (and presumably training flights) before Signal School in London? Why not the other way around, and why ‘advanced flying unit’ when no evidence of any kind of basic flying training?


    Query #4 – Was at 7SS in London for 4 months, then posted to SS Blackpool for a couple of weeks, then ACRC in London? I Know ACH was a paperwork exercise and at that time no physical holding units were about (they came about in ’44 and ’45 I believe), so would he actually have physically gone back to Blackpool for 2 weeks before then going back down to London for ACRC? Maybe some Signal training that they couldn’t do in London? Or was that a paperwork exercise too and he’d likely stayed in London?


    Query #5 – ACRC over a year from joining? I thought ACRC was for new recruits, so why the posting after he’s done two or three SS stints and AFU? And would he actually have been at Regents Park with all the other Rookies, or could he have gone home (Tottenham) for that period perhaps?


    Query #6 – at ACRC for 3 weeks before going back ‘up north’ to Bridlington for 14 ITW – again, would he have gone from London, to Blackpool, to London again and then up to Brid, all within 5 weeks or so? Or could Blackpool SS be a red herring, or maybe even ACRC?
     
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  2. PeteT

    PeteT Senior Member

    Paul

    As a start point for you:

    Deferred service was standard practice in the RAFVR, with men proceeding to a Receiving / Recruits Centre for 2 or 3 days for assessment and attestation and then being sent home to await call up.

    ------

    ACH is Aircrafthand so he was mustered as ACH / WOP[AG] meaning Aircrafthand / under training as a WOP[AG].

    When he qualified on 17th May 1942 he was remustered as a WOP[AG] and he was reclassified in the rank of Aircraftman Second Class. (This may suggest that he was qualified as a WOP[AG] [Ground] at that point in time and hadn't done any air crew training, but others would need to confirm [as I have to dash off])

    He then appears to have been remustered on 27th March 1943 as an ACH / under training as an Air Gunner, at which point he may have started to train as aircrew .... hence the posting to the ACRC and then ITW.

    -----

    I am happy to provide further information later today, but as I say, work commitments are calling

    Regards

    Pete
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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  3. RE864CoyPaul

    RE864CoyPaul Active Member

    Thanks so much for your help Pete! Much appreciated.

    So, if he indeed was a WOP/AG (ground) then remastered as aircrew (and subsequently acrc, iwt etc), what would've been his role if he stayed as wop/ag (ground)? I can imagine the wireless operator job role, but ground ag? Would that have possibly led to anti aircraft gunnery perhaps?

    I've seen iwm photos of acrc in regent's park and everyone's in civvies...if he remustered as aircrew, would he have arrived in civvies too, or gone in existing RAF uniform?

    Also, ACRC to ITW makes sense if remustered as aircrew, but then why did he go to AFU in August 42? How would that fit into his timeline as it's 7 months before ACRC and ITW? but I'm assuming he can't muster twice as aircrew? (Eg before AFU and then after, when going to ACRC etc)

    Here's the typed up service record my nan received in the mid 1990s, if it's any help?

    IMG-20200212-WA0007~2.jpg
    Thanks again for your help and anymore info you may be able to shine upon everything, would be greatly appreciated
     
  4. PeteT

    PeteT Senior Member

    There was no intake at the ACRC on 9th April, so I assume he was in 12th April intake which consisted of 1156 civilians and 117 kitted airmen. You may also be interested to know that he was one of 132 posted to 14 ITW on 1st May.
     
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  5. RE864CoyPaul

    RE864CoyPaul Active Member

    Thank you so much Pete!

    Digesting the info a bit more, do you think he was originally being trained as a WOp and then for some reason (failed exams, or a greater need for gunners), he was then switched to AG and that would explain being remustered, ACRC, ITW etc, after so much training previously to that?
    If he was remustered as air crew, would that also mean the previous signal school etc training, would've meant he was ground crew before being remustered?
    Thanks again for your help!
     
  6. PeteT

    PeteT Senior Member

    As we only have the extract from the record, rather than the actual record, it is difficult to piece together all the bits of this jigsaw. He definitely switched to training as an Air Gunner, but the reasons why are unclear, especially as he was promoted to "Temporary Sergeant" before he started this training.

    I have always understood that WOP / AG training was in two phases, with the airman spending 3+ months "on the ground" at an RAF unit before commencing the air training phase, but this understanding was questioned recently, so I don't want to be too definitive and send you down the wrong path.

    It would be interesting to hear other views.
     
  7. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    "24/02/44 Sgt D. Butler" ...
    "06/04/44 Sgt G.H. Butler" ...
    Really ?

    I don't know enough about RAFVR training to usefully comment on that but such a basic ID anomaly sadly begs the question of what else may be wrong with your info - like, say, the open-ended MiA business? Discussion of suspect data just tends to waste everyone's time. Original records are much to be preferred - even if judiciously-redacted.

    This 'elephant in the room' blunder incidentally reminds me of a much hotter recent thread - When research goes wrong !

    BTW, have you checked 78 Sqdn's ORB re that MiA report ?

    Steve
     
  8. RE864CoyPaul

    RE864CoyPaul Active Member

    Thanks Steve. George isn't missing in action, I'm not sure why that was typed up by the RAF when they sent it to my nan (George's sister in law) in the 90s, other than they were just blindly typing up from the original record without knowing anything else about him/his history (eg it wasn't showing the updates after the initial crash). He was formally identified at the crash site and is buried at Jonkerbos war cemetery, where my family have visited him previously.

    We're awaiting his full records to arrive at the moment. I already know of other typos not just in his partial record, bit also in the ORB etc, so I know it's not that uncommon but with some cross referencing and common sense, you can usually decipher it correctly etc
     
  9. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    As the RAF had transcribed virtually all their personnel records onto single A3 cards, back in the '60s to save space, their '90s copy-typist really had no excuse to mix them up. If, however, the mistake was made by a '60s transcriber wrestling with original loose paper bumph, you should discover the truth of that when you do finally receive your pair of A3 photocopies of the relevant card - unfolded, BTW in my mum's WAAF case, so in a huge envelope extremely unlikely to fit through any domestic letter box :D

    Also, in light of my past HCI research work BTW, I'm relieved to have figured out why my linked CWGC search failed to find George - due to option ambiguity, it seems I selected one too many 'English' filters and so accidentally suppressed all foreign cemetery matches including Jonkerbos. It must be some consolation to have a known grave - my 'fish food' RAFVR cousin-1 Eric is contrastingly only commemorated by the Runnymede Memorial. The family myth, in his case, was that he was KiA as a rear AG but truth was far more mundane ...

    And finally, re common sense you know, some wag once declared that that should rightly be regarded as a superpower given its rarity !
     
  10. pandphip

    pandphip New Member

    A few months ago, I started to have doubts about what I had been told about my father, who died when I was 15. I was told he was a rear gunner in Wellingtons and served in North Africa. But when I looked into things in more detail, my doubts became anomalies similar as have been posted here. Now that I have come across this site, I might be able to find some answers!

    Unlike Paul's posted war record, my father left the RAF in 1946 as an LAC! How could he be a rear gunner as an LAC? Surely he would be temporary/acting or full Sgt.

    He started his service in a balloon sqn (961 Sqn) in Dover as a telephonist (strange trade for someone with a broad Somerset accent!)

    He was recommended for aircrew training (perhaps nobody could understand him on the phone) and went to an ACSB in Oxford 7/8/42. From there he went to Regents Park 26/10/42 followed by Brighton and then 14 ITW on 2/1/43 (presumably Bridlington although it mentions Keevil, which having looked up Keevil's wartime role, doesn't make sense). Then we are presented with Cleeve 18/6/43 which I have read was a base for target towing and ground gunnery).

    Next, 5 POC (deployment convoy?) to North Africa Air Force (NAAF) in Dec 43 joining 231 Wg. I assume he probably moved with 70 Sqn to Foggia in Italy before returning to UK at the end of the war. The only other entry says MEC 15/10/45 - I've no idea what that is.

    So back to the fundamental question and theory. Was he aircrew or a failed trainee? I think the latter but I vaguely remember my mother showing me a small grey/blue aircrew log and an 'aircrew watch'.

    I would love to know the truth. I will not think any less of him...After reading about barrage balloons and the Dover bombings, I know he still went through hell like thousands of others and I can't help admire every one of them.
     

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