Following Dunkirk when was the Allies next major incursion into Europe? Was it D-Day? Is so what happened in Europe between 1940 and 1944!????
Matt: I don't believe the ill-fated raid (debacle) against Dieppe in August of 1942 is considered a "major incursion", so I think the first major incursions of the Allies into Europe after Dunkirk were by Russia as they pursued the Nazis in their retreat, and during the Sicily campaign by the joint British/American invasion force -- both in the late summer of 1943.
Originally posted by matt dixon@May 12 2004, 11:30 PM ..... If so what happened in Europe between 1940 and 1944!???? After Dunkirk the British army in England was in disarray. Three hundred thousand plus soldiers were dispersed throughout Great Britain, many of whom had become detached from their units. A massive regrouping and realignment effort was undertaken -- it took quite some time to reorganize the army once more into a cohesive fighting force. An enormous amount of equipment and supplies had been lost at Dunkirk and it took a considerable amount of effort and time to re-equip and resupply the troops. Many soldiers were granted leave in the immediate aftermath of Dunkirk both as a morale boosting move and in order to relieve the camp housing problem that had been created. One of my cousins suddenly showed up at his home in full uniform and kit -- including his issue SMLE rifle and bayonet. He was told he would be contacted by his regiment (East Lancashire) with reporting instructions in due course. A schoolmate of mine's brother showed up at his home in full uniform but without his issue rifle. He did have two great French bayonets that he had picked up on the beach at Dunkirk -- he gave them to his younger brothers -- lucky them! I imagine these scenes were repeated all over Great Britain.
I think the British army was in some disarray in Britain before Dunkirk. My father was called up in January 1940 and sent to a camp in Aldershot for training. This was convenient for him, as his home town was less than 20 miles away and he seemed to have no trouble getting away at the weekend. Anyway, he soon worked out that they really had no idea who they had in the camp and if he didn't report for muster parade in the morning, they would not miss him and he could skive all day. The resulting lack of training didn't seem to matter, because by 1941 he was a sergeant. Perhaps they thought he had initiative! At the end of his "training", probably shortly before Dunkirk, he was posted to a unit accommodated in a seafront hotel in Eastbourne, but this unit was broken up and the troops redeployed in the reorganisations later that year.
Originally posted by jamesicus@May 13 2004, 04:48 AM Matt: I don't believe the ill-fated raid (debacle) against Dieppe in August of 1942 is considered a "major incursion", so I think the first major incursions of the Allies into Europe after Dunkirk were by Russia as they pursued the Nazis in their retreat, and during the Sicily campaign by the joint British/American invasion force -- both in the late summer of 1943. Don't forget that British and Empire troops also fought in Greece in 1941.
Originally posted by BeppoSapone+May 15 2004, 01:05 PM-->(BeppoSapone @ May 15 2004, 01:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jamesicus@May 13 2004, 04:48 AM Matt: I don't believe the ill-fated raid (debacle) against Dieppe in August of 1942 is considered a "major incursion", so I think the first major incursions of the Allies into Europe after Dunkirk were by Russia as they pursued the Nazis in their retreat, and during the Sicily campaign by the joint British/American invasion force -- both in the late summer of 1943. Don't forget that British and Empire troops also fought in Greece in 1941.[/b]I was just addressing incursions -- the military action in Greece in the spring of 1941 (mostly April) was really a fighting retreat and evacuation.
Originally posted by BeppoSapone@May 15 2004, 01:05 PM Don't forget that British and Empire troops also fought in Greece in 1941. ...and they were a major subtraction from the forces in North Africa who might, in my opinion, have wrapped that campaign up a year earier but for the incursions into Greece and Crete. What do you think?
Originally posted by matt dixon@May 12 2004, 11:30 PM Following Dunkirk when was the Allies next major incursion into Europe? Following Dunkirk there were still tens of thousands of British troops still in France. I'm sure I've read somewhere that after Operation Dynamo had finished there were still 130,000 British service personnel in France. The 51st (Highland) Divison was still fighting until 12th June 1940 and as troops were being lifted from the beaches of Dunkirk the 52nd (Lowland) Divison was being ferried over to France. It must have taken some time to evacuate all British forces from France. Malta 1941- 1943 - Not strictly an incursion but certainly a thorn in the side of the Axis. Greece / Crete 1941 Sicily/ Italy-1943-44 only the 5th US and British 8th Armies - I'd say that would count as a major incursion! Lets not forget Rome was liberated on D-Day.
Originally posted by angie999+May 16 2004, 08:32 AM-->(angie999 @ May 16 2004, 08:32 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-BeppoSapone@May 15 2004, 01:05 PM Don't forget that British and Empire troops also fought in Greece in 1941. ...and they were a major subtraction from the forces in North Africa who might, in my opinion, have wrapped that campaign up a year earier but for the incursions into Greece and Crete. What do you think? [/b]I always try to work along the lines of "there are no ifs in history" but, seeing as we are getting into "alternative history". Agreed that the loss of the troops sent to Greece weakened the British and Empire forces in Egypt and Libya. However, if Hitler had not had to bail out the Italians in the Balkans the invasion of Russia could have taken place a month or two earlier than it did, sometime in April 1941 instead of June. If the Germans etc had had another 6 weeks or more of campaigning before the Russian winter broke would the Red Army have been beaten in the field in the autumn of 1941? Would Moscow and Leningrad have fallen? If Russia had been knocked out of the war in the first year, and Germany had only to fight in the west would the Allies ever have got ashore in Italy and in France? Some of the landings came very close to failure as it was. Of course, had Russia fallen and the Heer cut off the supply of oil to the British in 1941 etc etc As I say no point in all this, what happened happened and we have enough trouble finding that out without "what if....".
lets not forget that after Dunkirk the RAF in the form of both Fighter and bomber Commands continued to operate. In the period may to dec 1940, bomber command lost 950 aircrew members.
Originally posted by BeppoSapone@May 17 2004, 10:37 AM [ I always try to work along the lines of "there are no ifs in history" but, seeing as we are getting into "alternative history". And I too dislike couterfactual history, but the military themselves engage in post operational analysis to see what went right and what went wrong. I do not want to go too much into whether the Soviet Union could have been defeated in 1941 but for the Balkans campaign, except to say that some people believe that Barbarossa would have had to be postponed anyway, because the ground was very slow drying out that spring and it was too soft for panzer operations. It remains my view though that the forces sent to Greece caused a weakening of the British forces in North Africa at a time when they had a chance of completing the defeat of the Italians and before the DAK was deployed in theatre. ..and that is about as far as I want to go with "what if".
Originally posted by morse1001@Jun 26 2004, 12:14 PM lets not forget that after Dunkirk the RAF in the form of both Fighter and bomber Commands continued to operate. In the period may to dec 1940, bomber command lost 950 aircrew members. What happened after Dunkirk?. Britain and her Empire was alone and would be until December 1941.Our old friend the US made things a little easier for us by recognising the Vichy Government .I do not think it has been recorded who the advisor was who recommended this aspect of foreign policy to the President of the USA. The future looked black for the British but the USA were the saviours of the British in that they desired to trade not with Germany but with Britain.The British had the choice of debt or death and choose debt.Overall, perhaps the USA could not accept an economical model where Germany would reign over a market from the Channel to the Urals and threaten the rising US dominance in world markets. During the period now known as the Battle of Britain,RAF Bomber Command lost 801 aircrew,the majority lost in operations against the invasion barge ports of occupied Europe.The fact that Hitler could not command the sea and skies resulted in his demotivation for Operation Sealion by the sring of 1941. What followed was a delay of 6 weeks in the excution of Operation Barbarosa while Hitler tried to make peace with the British. Was Hess on official business? The delay of 6 weeks was sufficient for the weather to reinforce the same warning to Hitler as Napoleon received,an army bogged down by mud and then General Winter intervened to save Moscow before Christmas 1941. Hitler being the impetuous man he was, was anxious to commission his lebensraum policy with the intension of pushing Soviet Russia behind the Urals.From this date in June 1941, Hitler's and the Nazi state fate was sealed, in the long term,they could not match the economic might and war machine of their different political opponents and twice in 25 years committed themselves to warfare on both West and Eastern borders.
Provided it is grounded in 'fact' (i.e. as much as is ever possible whilst using the best sources an historian can collate), the examination of probable yet counterfactual scenarios can be a useful historical tool. Of course there are numerous impoderables that shape world events, but it can give an insight into why, in fact, a certain decision was made, particularly when addressing an action that caused a major change in the War and/or modern history. Richard
