Advice on research please: WW2 gun emplacement, Thames Ditton

Dear Martin,

Your recent comment posted on Exploring Surrey's Past was forwarded to the Surrey Historic Environment Record (HER) for a response.

Having checked our database and mapping, the HER has no record of any heritage asset on the site of your club, so the information you have supplied is of considerable interest.

Our database does contain one instance of an anti-aircraft gun emplacement in Thames Ditton parish, but this is reported to be located well to the south at Longmead Road in the Weston Green area, as can be seen on the map accompanying the online version of the record at https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHHER_6889.

The information behind this record comes from two studies published by the Council for British Archaeology: 'Twentieth Century Fortifications in England, Volume 1.3, Anti-aircraft artillery, 1914-1946' (published 1996), and the 'Defence of Britain Survey' (2003). Given the provenance, I am rather doubtful that the grid reference to which the feature is attributed would be out by the best part of a mile, but such an error would be far from impossible. I would love to be able to check the published sources for you but unfortunately they are boxed-up awaiting an imminent reorganisation of our office space, so it will be a few weeks before I can access them.

On balance, however, I feel what you have reported may be a previously unknown Second World War-era emplacement - though this is not to discount the possibility its existence has been noted and discussed in local historical publications. If at all possible, the HER would be very grateful to receive from you photographs or other evidence of the structure so that we can share with colleagues better-versed in wartime remains who may be able to offer a more precise identification and interpretation of it.

Best regards,

Robert Briggs
HER Officer
He/him

Surrey Historic Environment Record
Historic Environment Planning
Surrey County Council
Quadrant Court
35 Guildford Road
Woking
Surrey
GU22 7QQ

Many thank to everyone for giving me tip and leads on this, it is much appreciated. I have started to put some feelers out with other groups as recommended. Out of interest this is a response I have had.

 

Martin also worth contacting

The Pillbox Study Group Website.

regards
Clive

 

I have now had a more detail read of the 49th AA Brigade Diary which I mentioned above. It gives a good account of the development of the AA defences that surrounded London in an arc to the west. There are numerous mentions of the various regiments, gun sites and vulnerable points but nothing that I could see for Thames Ditton. The closest places being Hampton (Hurst Park) and Kingston (related to Hawkers). Looking through 79AA Battery diary and again no reference to Thames Ditton although they were heavily involved in guarding the various waterworks installations nearby and had troops manning other locations as far off as Hayes. It should be noted that, particularly early in the war, a lot of sites (VPs) were only defended with light machine guns and larger calibre weapons would seem in the minority even as the Bofors became more widely available. It is also clear that locations and grid references for batteries must probably only refer to the 'headquarters' with guns, particularly if light machine guns, located nearby and not recorded individually. Whether this site in Thames Ditton was such a scattered and small location I don't know but I would have though that if a battery only had access to very light weapons, they would have to be located very close to the point being defended.
There were of course Waterworks at Surbiton but the fact they don't seem to be mentioned at all seems a strange omission. I don't know how significant the works there were to London's overall supply but I do know that the mains radiating from Hampton and Kempton extended well out to north and south London (as they still do today) and if lost would have caused serious disruption to the capitol.
So, where does this leave us. My diaries don't extend beyond 1941 so it's possible that later in the war, guns could have been sited here. Also, I only have one of the regiment / battery diaries that 49 LAA Brigade diary mentions so perhaps on a later visit to Key I can try and get hold of some of those and perhaps the site mentioned above at Weston Green.

 

I cannot thank you enough for this information and the work you have put into it. I am waiting to hear from another couple of sources and eventually I will sift through it all and may at least have some idea what this location/building was.

 

Look forward to hearing what you might find out and if on a future visit to Kew I can copy the diaries for some more of the regiments who operated in the area I will share if relevant.

 

Hi Robert,
I don't know if this is helpful, but my grandad operated a gun on Weston Green and the map you have supplied is accurate.
Jane x

 

Hello Jane welcome to the forum

as we posted before there was a heavy anti aircraft site on Weston Green as shown on the map sadly not close to where Martin is looking
Map of Heavy Anti-Aircraft gun sites in England, Scotland and Wales

If you would like to share info re your grandfather you can start a thread here we would find it most interesting
Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy

regards
Clive

 

Many thanks for the warm welcome, Clive. I've just started looking into my grandad's war record, which is how I found this fascinating group. I don't know a lot about his service as he didn't often talk about it, but he did tell me about being on Weston Green, so when Robert posted "I am rather doubtful that the grid reference to which the feature is attributed would be out by the best part of a mile, but such an error would be far from impossible.", I thought it might be helpful to know that his map isn't incorrect.

Looking forward to researching my grandad further

Jane x

 

Well done Jane
If you wish please put up his details on the link i suggested and you will be surprised the info forum members can assist with
If you havent already sent off for his service records via the official gov site do not pay any monies to sites on line that promise his service records
Get a copy of military service records