Advice on 25 pounder and Quad kit please

Just thought i would post this photo to show the bin on the back of this morris in iraq 1941 and name on the side. The guys with the x were mia.
Keith

 

Cheers Keith, great to have another set of eyes on, appreciate it.

 

i have been researching my Father-in-law's WW2 service and he served in 71 FR, 281 Bty, A Troop as a driver. 71 Fr served with 46th Inf Div through west N Africa before landing at Salerno with the 5th Army. He died a few years back but I wanted to make a model of the Gun Tractor he would have driven along with the 25pdr and limber. Naturally i came across this thread which has been both informative and, at times, baffling. I had knew about Morris and CMP Ford/Chevy's but hadn’t appreciated the difference in the Morris versions wrt to bodies. Being (almost) as obsessive about accuracy as those on this thread!!! I wanted to have the right FAT and markings and I have noted Derek Barton's site. The history of the 46th Div has a picture of a FAT and gun landing at Salerno but would appreciate some help in confirming the version as the photo is a bit grainy. Also, at the rear of the vehicle there is either some structure mounted ON the "beetle back" in a cage as shown earlier in this thread or its something beyond? Any help would be much appreciated before I buy a particular kit (though i see the Mirror model is generally unobtainable).
Many thanks
David

 

Still not even attempted to build my kit, the Gecko as you probably read. It’s a Mk II, and the one in the PAIFORCE photo with my Grandad is a Mk III - I know this only because a kindly member here looked up the serial number and it was mentioned in a “batch” of Mk IIIs.

As you know, the Mk III in the Mirror Models range is very hard to find, so if I want to do my kit in the livery of a model I know for sure grandad drove, I might end up having to cheat and use the Mk II kit.

To be honest, I don’t know what the noticeable difference is between the various versions, there are doubtless very good experts here for that.

 

Wikipedia does have a section on body types which can make it even harder to determine versions.

"Three types of body were used:

• All Mk Is and approximately the first 3,000 Mk IIs had a "beetle back" body. This had two doors, only two small windows on the right side and one on the left side, and an all-metal roof with two revolving vents.
  
• The later Mk IIs and approximately the first 4,000 Mk IIIs had a later type of "beetle back" with an additional small window on the left front side and windows in both doors. A canvas roof was mounted on a cruciform steel frame over the crew compartment, and there were two square vents in the roof behind the canvas section. The vehicle also had larger fuel tanks and filler cap surrounds.
  
• The last 2000 Mk IIIs had a "Number 5 body", which was a new design with a square shape and a complete canvas top with two circular hatches, and four doors with windows.
  

Once the 18-pounder and 18/25-pounder had left service there was no requirement to carry the gun's traversing platform on the roof. The brackets for this were duly removed, and usually substituted by a framework to provide an additional area for the storage of kit.

See also

• CMP FAT, a similar vehicle by Chevrolet and Ford. Early models had very similar bodywork, but can be identified by a four-sided windscreen glass, compared to the five-sided Morris Quad screen, with the upper corner cut away."

I hope that the above helps you.
David

 

Thank you.

Interestingly, the Gecko kit is described as a Mk II “LATE” and whilst it does have the canvas roof, it does not have the windows in the doors - hmmm, might make it difficult therefore to pass it off as the one in grandad’s photo!

These are some photos of the kit which was built by a member on Britmodeller.com. Wish I had that skill!




His Quad, note doors:

 

Here's my thoughts at present (I welcome any corrections as I am learning as i go along!):
The photo of the Quad on the beach at Salerno is (if i am to believe Wikipedia entry on C8s) that its a late Mk II or early Mk III as:
1. I believe that it has a canvas roof (i think i can perceive the outline and tie down straps)
2. It has windows in the RH side door
3. The filler cap surround looks very large
It does have a full width roof stowage which seems to have been a local mod as in the photo posted by MorrisC8.

HOWEVER, the Gecko kit which states its late Mk II has no windows in the doors so i'm still slightly confused

 

Indeed.

 

After reviewing hundreds of photos of Quads of various models, im beginning to think that Gecko are the ones who have got a complicated subject wrong and that their "late Mk II" model should have had windows in the doors. I MIGHT even look to modify the kit to include door windows but ill have to see how practical that is. I have now ordered it and the Bronco 25pdr and the race is now on to build it before Wobbler builds his!

 

Lol, you will definitely finish yours before I even start mine! The fact you’re mentioning you may have to modify the doors shows you have a level of modelling skill and confidence far beyond my own.

I too have the Bronco 25pdr, also sitting in its box unmade for a couple of years.

 

Just to muddy up the waters, many field regiments in Italy used other tractors than Quads. Some had the GMC CCKW 253 (short wheelbase), and I had seen also the Bedford QLB, in use, but can't remember where.

 

Not muddying at all, it is all helpful, thank you.

I’m probably going to go with the colours for his time in Persia, as per the photo I have of him. Presumably green and, I’m guessing, black going by the photo. Only because I know he drove that vehicle with that number - only problem being I need a Mk III model, which isn’t easy to find right now.

May still do the Mk III model kit I currently have in Italy colours just for the contrast between the two. That’s whenever I get round to building it!

 

A foliage camo pattern suggests the vehicle was painted in the UK. The base colour could be khaki green or light brown, depending on when it was painted, for 1942. Not a later olive green. Khaki green has a lot of brown to it

The disruptive colour could be Dark Tarmac (very dark grey effectively, with a tone which is not definitely worked out) or a darker brown. The browns have been described as "weak tea" and "strong tea" fwiw.

 

Thanks Chris, that’s most helpful.

 

I have almost completed the Gecko "Late Mk II" C8 Quad in colours appropriate to Tunisian campaign where 71 FR were before landing at Salerno. After much discussion and consultation with the "Guru" on British Military Camouflage and colours - Mike Starmer (who was incredibly helpful) - I have painted my C8 (now modified with door windows!) in Brown (SCC2) basic colour inside and out with a disruptive pattern of Very Dark Brown (SCC1A). To be honest, looking at the few B&W photos of C8s in this camo pattern, the Very Dark Brown doesn't look as dark as the disruptive paint in those pictures in that the contrast isn't as pronounced. I bought Mike's book on British Military Camouflage and Colours - Sicily and Italy 1943-1945 and hadn't realised that what would appear to be such a simple subject was SO complicated!

 

I very much look forward to seeing your finished model, if you’re going to post it here, or in a new thread, and I’m certainly very impressed that you modified the doors somehow to accommodate the windows. Very jealous of your skill set with that! You have the 25 pdr and trailer too don’t you.

I’ve not got Mike’s book, whichever one would cover Persia in late 1942 (the “Alamein and After” might cover it I guess), I’d probably get killed by Mrs Wobbler if I spent out on that, have to tell her it cost a fiver second hand or summat .

Without seeing the Sicily colours in his book, if I go that way instead - and that would be me assuming grandad drove that very same C8 in his photo in both Persia and Sicily - I had just assumed the Sicily camo would be almost desert-like, i.e. very light, it being hot and dusty in Sicily in the summer. Pretty much like the Mirror Models Mk III guide shows as this paint scheme for Sicily ‘43, assuming their version is accurate in the first place of course.



There’s also this image, but not 100% sure if this is Sicily or the Italian mainland - nor when it was snapped.