Administrative History of 21st Army Group.

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by Rich Payne, May 14, 2009.

  1. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Adam found this document on-line a while back but I suspect that it was only seen by the few following the 'trucks' thread (or 'How Austins nearly lost the War'):)

    Admin History 21 Army Gp

    Edit: archived - Admin History 21 Army Gp

    It really is a fantastically interesting document with insights into all manner of things from the survival rates of typewriters to casualty clearance and dealing with offenders, plus all the expected logistics.

    I've printed myself a hard copy now and am working my way through it and thought that I might post the odd observation. I'm also interested to see others comments. I really do think that it's a subject which deserves its own thread although perhaps I should have posted under 'Source documents online' ?.
    Buteman, Owen and von Poop like this.
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Good move Rich, I also reckon It's a fascinating document for anyone interested in the logistics and less 'glamorous' aspects of running the Normandy business & beyond.

    (Moved to 'Unit Documents'. Really should do a hard-copy myself, does my head in reading so much from a screen).
  3. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    First found your post about this on MLU - what a gem of a document.
    I have already found some interesting info - e.g. details of the use of Hollerith punched card equipment for statistical analysis - and am sure there is much more to find.

    There are a host of other interesting documents on that site - e.g. For Normandy all softskin vehicles were progressively marked as the three stages of waterproofing were completed on them with 3”X1” strips painted on the offside front mudguard behind the wing lamp – Blue for stage A; Yellow for stage B and Red for stage C.
    von Poop likes this.
  4. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    Further to the above, I have also discovered a series of documents described as:
    ….. a series of volumes, compiled by authority of the Army Council, the object of which is to preserve the experience gained during the Second World War, 1939-1945, in selected fields of military administration.
    I know of "Signals" and "Movements" available on line and have heard that quite a number of others were produced.
    Does anyone know if any of the others are available anywhere?

    Will post a summary of on-line sources of some interesting stuff tomorrow.

  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    I have only just started reading the site, but it looks to be a real Gem.

    Many thanks.

  6. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    My apologies for not replying to you on MLU Noel, I read it and forgot to respond.

    Well done for noticing the significance of the wading info. There is so much information in the document that assessing the relevance is the hardest part.

    Now I'm going to have to look for suitable period photographs.

    This is not something that I've seen mentioned in other publications yet I can't believe that it has been overlooked for all this time.
  7. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    perhaps it comes from WO 205/996 which is a Miscellaneous Class of Files from Kew that carries the description "Administrative History of 21st Army Group".
    WO 219/3673 is another possiblity.

  8. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    Here's the Sources of documents I mentioned yesterday:

    Some 700 documents ranging from WW2 (most theatres) to the near past relating chiefly to Movement Control and including [relevant to NW Europe]:
    Administrative history of 21st Army Group ............................document 514
    Notes for Railway traffic officers 1942 ..................................document 18
    Combined Operations pamphlets No 9 .................................document 19
    .................................................No42 ..................................document 20
    ..................................................No35C ...............................document 21
    Instructions for movement to/from NW Europe 1945 ..............document 23
    The Second World War 1939-45 “Movements” ..................document 24
    Operation/Control of Captured/Liberated Ports NW Europe ...............41
    Various documents re. Movement Control & Operation Overlord .....124

    From {requires registration with associated Yahoo Group]
    Large range of Signal Training Pamphlets – Pre War, WW2 & Post War
    includes some commonwealth & US items
    Plenty of Technical manuals –a few of which relate to installations in vehicles and to Radar.
    Also includes [relevant to NW Europe]
    The Second World War 1939–45 “Signal Communication”
    Story of 12 Air Formation Signals 1943-45
    Combined Operations pamphlets (large number of)

    A number of British & Commonwealth Small Arms Training Pamphlets

    Loads of brochures Etc for various AEC vehicles & Landrovers
    “Improvised Repairs to Wheeled Vehicles in the Field” 1943
    REME Guide to Recovery
    Notes on use of cross country gear

    From [link appears to be broken at present]
    Joint Services Command & Staff Library:
    Combined Operations Pamphlet No 11 1943
    ..................................................No 18 1944
    1943 “Report & Appreciation” [proposed] Operation Overlord
    Two reports on Mulberry B
    Order of Battle – Assault landings
    Several Reports & Documents relating to British/Canadian landings

    I'm also putting together a seperate list of the Combined Operations Pamphlets if anyone is interested
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    What I was refering to was the Original Source .

  10. Old Git

    Old Git Harmless Curmudgeon

    I loved this little gem....

    Military personnel also were concerned in various thefts of foodstuffs, petrol, vehicles, clothing and blankets, which afterwards found their way into the civilian black market. In one case investigations of the SIB led to the arrest of a gang of deserters masquerading as an authorised military unit. This gang was organised to the extent of having its own stationery and identity cards printed, for several months drew petrol and rations from army sources, and requisitioned its own cars and billets from unsuspecting civilians.
  11. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Did anybody save a digital copy of the file mentioned in the original post?

    I'm curious, but the link is dead.
  12. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    This should work Admin History 21 Army Gp
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  13. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    I have a pdf copy of this document - I cannot be sure where I got it from but I think it was the Scribd website, I have cancelled my membership now so cant go back to check.
  14. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    I have just bought a original copy of The Administrative History of 21st Army Group and have a original copy of Movement Control Instructions NWE 1st May 1945 127 pages.
    Army MCI 1945 cover.jpg Army MCI 1945 intro.jpg Army MCI 1945 Code Letters.jpg Army MCI 1945 Code Letters. port.jpg Army MCI 1945 Code Letters. Destination.jpg
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  15. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Here is the index for the Movement Control Instructions NWE 1st May 1945 .
    Army MCI 1945 index 1.jpg Army MCI 1945 index 2 jpg.jpg Army MCI 1945 index 3.jpg Army MCI 1945 index 4.jpg Army MCI 1945 index 5.jpg Army MCI 1945 index 6.jpg
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  16. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Aixman likes this.
  17. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    Below is a link to a .pdf copy of the "Administrative History" on my Google Drive - it is compete with all maps and tables. Cant remember where I found this online (it was some time ago). I have been talking to the Forum Admins (mainly Von Poop) about putting it in the forum Resources section but the file size is too big.
    help yourselves Ladies & Gentlemen, it will be available "for the duration" of the current Viral problems.
  18. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Thank you Noel.
    At last I have the appendices and can throw away my tattered paper copy. Even the paper clips are rusting...
  19. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    Thank you very much, Noel!
  20. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    It occurred to me that rather than throwing away my paper copy, a scan of 100 pages at low res would come out at less than 100Mb. It is a print out from old Movecon website and is very legible. I don’t have Appendices however. Does site have storage for this size file?

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